Episode 48: Too Much NRE

Is 18 months long enough to wait for someone to decide if polyamory is for them?

That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help.

Discussion Topic: What is your love language?

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Episode 48 – Too Much NRE

Is 18 months enough time to give someone to decide if they want polyamory?  That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help. Find the full audio transcription of this episode on Patreon. Discussion Topic – What’s your love language?

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Use our affiliate link for 10% off your first month.

Thank you to Chris Albery-Jones at albery-jones.com for the theme music and a big thanks for the podcast art to Dom Duong at domduong.com.

Podcast transcript

Letter:

I have been in a relationship with my husband A for about 12 years.  Initially we started off in an open, polyamorous relationship (back when we didn’t know the term).  At the time, he was polyamorous and seeing two other women in addition to myself.  Even though I was allowed to see others, I felt myself only wanting him, and therefore assumed I was monogamous.

At one point, I told him kindly that I would likely need to leave the relationship because it was hurting me too much that we were not exclusive (not blaming him at all, because he was completely honest about who he was).  At that point, he told me he didn’t want to lose me, and that he would try monogamy.

We were then monogamous together for a few more years, after which time I developed an intense crush on someone (B) at work, who I almost ended my relationship over.  Now I know that was NRE.  My crush on (B) was mostly an emotional relationship, with some physical involvement with (As) subsequent permission.  Too many details, but A and I briefly decided to open up our relationship, at which point A immediately found a part-time girlfriend.

At the time, I convinced myself I had a crush on B because A wasn’t ready to marry me, and I therefore didn’t “feel loved enough.”  A gave me a choice to either stay in the relationship or leave to be with (B).  I chose to stay with (A) and work on distancing myself from (B) to try and get over my feelings.

Also (B), though also having intense feelings for me, was not looking to settle into anything serious in that moment.  And was also confused about what he wanted.  B also had a lot of other emotional issues he was going through at the time, and it would have been a very unstable relationship.  And I knew I still loved (A).

After deciding to stay together with A, things went well.  We remained in a good relationship together, decided to get married, at least on my end felt generally happy.

We had some issues.  One that kept on repeating itself is that my love language is through words.  And for as long as we’ve been together, it’s hard for me to feel emotionally reassured or supported by A when I’m dealing with something stressful or upsetting..  Although I find he is really trying, it is difficult for A to comfort me without getting defensive, or telling me he feels “attacked,” because my voice sounds angry or upset, even though I’m upset about something that has nothing to do with him.

After a lot of thinking, I realized though B was not an emotionally stable man, that comforting me when I felt upset was something he had kind of been able to do.

Moving forward about 3 years after A and I got married, we settled down for another traveling gig in a new town.  And several months into my new job, I found myself developing a crush on my coworker (C).  This time it was different.  I was shocked with myself.  I couldn’t understand it.  This time there was no excuse.  A had given me everything I had asked for.  He was committed, monogamous, he had married me, he was so good to my family.  I still loved him.  I knew that.

And yet, I found myself falling deeply in love with C.  He returned my feelings.  He was married.  We both worked very hard on trying to remain just friends, no matter what our feelings were.  I even tried to coordinate couples dates with me and A and C and his wife.  A was very agreeable, but C’s wife kept on giving excuses for why they couldn’t hang out with us.  So it never happened.

After a year and a half of holding back, I felt I didn’t want to hold back anymore.  I was so in love with C, and I didn’t want to lose the chance.  I kissed him at work (and some physical involvement as well).  So yes, I cheated. I was planning on eventually telling A.  A few months into the affair, A asks me and I tell him the truth.

In all fairness, I should’ve spoken to A.  And I do take full responsibility for the cheating.  It was wrong.  And at the time, I was so scared he’d tell me I’d have to choose, like what happened the last time.  And my NRE was so strong, I felt I wouldn’t be able to bear it and would have to leave A.

Well, A was understandably hurt.  But, literally about less than 48 hours later, he tells me he has a realisation that we should go back to being polyamorous.  After all, he was polyamorous already, had known that about himself for years, and I was obviously not doing well with monogamy.  I still feel A should’ve yelled at me, punished me.  Been upset with me for longer.  I deserved it.  I admit I am still having a hard time forgiving myself for my affair, even as I write this.

Well, A restructured into polyamory quite quickly.  Within several months, he had a few new girlfriends (these were serious relationships with women he deeply cared for – not casual encounters).  This is who he is.  (Later A explained to me he had been very unhappy for the last few years, and had felt himself becoming more emotionally distant as a result;

A does admit he believes some of what drew me to C is that C was a strong emotionally supportive friend who was there for me for over a year, when A had been emotionally distant. A is still so thankful I met C and that C was there for me during that time).

So after A found out about the affair, I spoke to C, who was adamantly opposed to polyamory, not because he judges it, but because he doesn’t believe it’s for him.  Initially he attempted to leave his wife, telling her he wanted to be with me, but later went back to her when he found out I had no intention of leaving my husband.

He tried to bring up polyamory with his wife, who declined it, and gave him an ultimatum that he had to choose between her or me.  (C admitted to me later that he had initially left his wife because he was hoping I might choose him and leave my husband).

To be clear, C didn’t want to pull me away from A, but was hoping that maybe I’d realise he was a better choice for me, and that maybe A and I were growing apart.  C never gave me an ultimatum.  He has a kind heart, and told me he would’ve worked on being happy for me if I chose A and was happy with A.  But he had difficulty with the concept of polyamory.

After discussing the option of polyamory, C asked me to wait, because he wanted to try and learn more and consider whether he could open himself up to this idea.  Initially he dived in, began reading books, going on poly[am] blogs, and talking of a potential poly[am] future with me.  But a few months in, he stopped, not really explaining why, other than to say he was busy with all this other stuff in his life, and didn’t have the time, and that he still was processing things.

During this time, we have been seeing each other secretly (his wife doesn’t know, although I have repeatedly told him he should tell her).  My husband A knows everything.  Actually, A and C have met and like each other.  Though they aren’t friends, they get along.  A is comfortable.  C has never quite felt comfortable, and always worries he’s in the way of my marriage with A.

It has been about 18 months total of me waiting (basically putting my life on hold) for C to process what he wants.  It’s not that C told me I couldn’t date anyone else.  But he did say that if I began seeing someone new, he would have an emotionally difficult time starting a new relationship with me, and may have to really leave.  He’s obviously ok with me continuing to see A.

So I’ve been seeing A.  And I’m seeing C in secret (because he hasn’t told his wife).  And because of this dynamic, I barely get to see him.  Just briefly for a few hours once or twice a week when his wife is at work.  And it’s so hard, that I’ve given myself a deadline that I’ve told him about where I will eventually need to leave.  Because it hurts too much, coming second to his wife all the time.  Not getting to really even date, no overnights, limited phone time, mostly texting.

I won’t go into this part in detail, but C’s wife (per C’s description) is controlling in many ways, does not treat him respectfully, and keeps him away from his kids from his previous marriage, forcing him to choose.

During this time, my husband A has developed several significant relationships with 3 other women, and also developing some relationships with a few others that are yet undetermined status.  Our relationship has shifted.  We are no longer a couple in a primary relationship, with secondary relationships.

He considers himself egalitarian poly[am], and solo poly[am], and I am now one of several partners he loves.  I only see him about 1-2 days a week (so we have maybe a day date together, and one evening).  Occasionally we have a bit more time when one of his girlfriends is out of town.  He even had his own apartment he is subletting, where he goes occasionally.  And he has moved into the spare room in our apartment, so that our relationship is no longer like a couple, and more suited to dating.  Though we are dating about once a week, our situation at  home in our apartment is more like roommates.

This has been very difficult for me, because I was used to seeing A all the time, every day.  I know I still love him, and that he still loves me.  Even though I’ve been having the affair with C, the concepts of polyamory are still very new to me, and I struggle a lot with insecurity, and things I’m working on with myself.

I do have emotional outbursts intermittently, and am still processing through multiple monogamous concepts I am trying to restructure in my mind.  I am learning as I go, and do believe I am slowly making progress, identifying where my insecurities lie.  I do believe seeing an individual poly[am]-friendly therapist would be good for me.

As I explained before, A has always had a difficult time emotionally supporting me when I’m upset – so this has caused a large strain on our relationship over the last 6 months, especially if I’m upset because of something he is doing.  And I am still working on creating a poly[am]-friendly support group.  For a while, A was one of my only emotional supports, and that’s a large burden to place on A.

It got so bad that we separated for a couple of weeks, and I was almost ready to leave him.  But then I realized I still love A so much, and don’t want to give up on our relationship yet.  But 1-2 days a week is not enough for me.  I enjoy being in a couple.  It’s what I would want.  I think I’m polyamorous (still not quite sure), but not a solo poly[am].  It’s important for me to have quality time in my relationship to develop the intimacy I need.  I need more time in a relationship than 1-2 days a week.  But this is all A can give me at this point.

And I do have to add that with everything that’s going on with C, he is able (more than any man I’ve been with) to emotionally comfort me and reassure me when I’m upset.  It is a need I never really had met until I met C.  And it’s a need that is very important to me. .

So my dilemma is this:

I love A and C.  They both love me.  Ideally, I’d love to be with both of them.  C has similar values and life goals to mine/  Ideally I’d love for him to be a primary partner with me – in terms of living together, time spent together, etc – and for A to be my secondary partner.  A is cool with that.  C is not.  After 18 months of processing, C is still not sure he can handle polyamory.  The idea of me possibly meeting future men upsets him.  He is still not even sure he can share me with A.

Though A and I have gone in very different directions since we became poly[am], I still love him, and don’t want to leave him right now.  I feel I may regret it, and possibly end up resenting C for it later on.

Ideally I’d want a fully polyamorous relationship that is non-exclusive, but I am willing to compromise on a closed triad (well, A will be fully polyamorous, but I will be exclusive with A and C only, and C will be exclusive with me; and his wife if she wants to continue seeing him – I have never asked C to choose between me and his wife).

Part of me still wonders whether I’m truly polyamorous, or whether my need for emotional support and comfort/reassurance was just not met in my relationship with A.  Would I be happy with C alone?  Or am I poly[am]?

At this point, I’m planning on ending my affair with C, because I can’t go on barely getting to be with someone I deeply care about, and I don’t feel good that his wife doesn’t know.  I feel both she and I deserve more respect in our relationships.  Not that he is intentionally disrespecting us.  He just knows if he tells her he’ll have to lose her; and he loves us both.  Though he says he’s pretty unhappy with her.  And prefers to be with me.

At the same time, I am not sure if I should just give C what he wants – monogamy.  24/7 exclusive relationship.  I don’t want to lose him.  And he is willing to offer me things that A is not.

If I stay with A, and lose C, I end up with a relationship where I only get to date A only 1-2 days a week.  Is that kind of relationship worth giving C up over?  And at this point I’m still really high on NRE with C.  I feel so in love with him, and the idea of letting him go overwhelms me.  I know I can do it, but it will hurt so much.

But I love A, and I don’t want to leave him.  He’s been such a good man to me over the past 12 years, and I still think we have potential.

Any advice on what I should do?

Response:

The first thing that I would say with this is that— one thing that I’ve kind of repeated a lot in the columns and in the podcasts occasionally, is that polyamory isn’t about having multiple unfulfilling relationships. It’s supposed to be about having multiple fulfilling relationships, and I sometimes feel like people choose polyamory, not because they’re actually interested in polyamory but because they don’t want to break up with someone, and I don’t really think that that’s the same thing.

Like, you shouldn’t use polyamory as an excuse to stay with people who aren’t really meeting your needs. And that’s kind of what I feel like you’ve done with A for a very, very long time. A clearly is not really capable of giving you the emotional support you need. And I think you can deal with that if you don’t have to rely on A. But I still think that the fact that A reacts so badly to you being emotional about things that do involve him

is a little worrying.

Because even if you only have a “secondary” relationship, you still may have issues and you still may have things that you need to discuss, and it’s going to be really hard for you to actually discuss them if, you know, A reacts or has this kind of reaction to you being emotional. And that might be worth working on with each other. I don’t know, like, far be it for me to say when someone else has too many partners, but the fact that he has like so many people that he has to focus on. It just makes me wonder like what the deal is with that.

And people can have multiple partners and lots of different partners and that doesn’t reflect anything, but sometimes I do think that sometimes people choose polyamory because it means that they don’t have to emotionally support anybody. Do you know what I mean? Like if they’re just a “secondary”  to everybody and they don’t have to live with anyone, and they don’t have to be a primary or any kind of an emotional support to anyone then they can get away with not being able to emotionally support anyone. And I think that that’s okay but I do think that that merits some kind of communication and I just, I worry that there hasn’t really been a situation where A has sat you down and said “Look, you need this, and I can’t provide this”.

And that’s a little worrying, because even if you are to date A as a secondary he still… you can’t even tell him right now that one to two days is not enough for you because he reacts so poorly and feels attacked every time you bring something up. So it’s like you have to be, regardless of how often you see somebody, you have to be able to tell them if they’re not meeting your needs. You have to be able to have difficult discussions. It’s really really funny because I actually spoke to my therapist, about, you know, with the— If you’re listening to this right now. Right now I’m recording this, we’re in a pandemic so we’re in lockdown. And with my partners— like my with my domestic partner that I live with— obviously we are around each other 24/7, and that causes a lot of friction in a lot of ways.

And because we’ve been bickering so much that has sort of signalled in my head a panic kind of thing and has made me go, “Oh my god we’re bickering we’re gonna—“. You know because I’m used to big family arguments ending up in something huge and dramatic happening. I’m used to a family argument ending with someone getting kicked out. So, for us to bicker, I’m not really used to that and it really really throws me off. And so— but my therapist actually said like, “Look, if you go in a whole relationship without ever arguing— You know, sometimes arguing get your feelings out and it helps you work through things and you become stronger together because you argue. It doesn’t weaken things”. And it makes me wonder like if you can’t argue with A, if you can’t bring things up, if you can’t have a disagreement because every time you bring something up, he’s like, “Oh you’re attacking me”.

That doesn’t bode well for any kind of relationship with him, and that’s that’s kind of a worry and I do kind of wonder if this is what you’re actually, you know— this is what’s happening to you. You are basically you know in this relationship— and keeping it open because and seeking other partners because you feel lonely and because you’re not getting the things that you need, emotionally . So that is something that you really need to think about, because, I mean, you are incompatible in a lot of ways.

A second thing though is that you’re making C out to be a lot nicer than he is. You say he’s not intentionally doing this. He is intentionally doing this. Like he is intentionally choosing to cheat on his wife with you. He is. And he doesn’t have the sort of ability to state his needs with his wife, either. He is not able to accept the fact that two people, even if they’re married and even if they love each other and care for each other can be incompatible, and is totally is like— I’m almost annoyed— heavily annoyed with C because he’s such a massive hypocrite.

He doesn’t want you to be polyamorous. Basically he is dictating to you, you know whether or not— you say “well he doesn’t—“. People don’t have to specifically say you’re not allowed to date other people. If they create a situation where you feel unsafe or you feel like you can’t like that. That’s the thing like he is basically making a situation where you can’t pursue anybody else. He’s fine to cheat on his wife, but he has a problem with consensual ethical open relationships, and like, I’m not saying he has to be polyamorous and I’m not saying he has to be okay with it, but it is very hypocritical for him to be in a situation where basically he’s allowed to cheat but you can’t have another ethical relationship because he will have a problem with that.

It’s… yeah, he’s not as great as you’re making him out to be like he may be great at emotionally comforting you. And to be honest, like that’s— that isn’t… that’s not a high bar. Like all due respect to you. All due respect to A. All due respect to the situation. Someone being able to comfort you when you are upset is not like a… There’s another podcast that I recorded earlier about gold medals. Go listen to that. It’s not like— so many people are in situations, and I’m gonna be honest with you, it’s usually women who are in situations with men or in relationships with men where the man does something very very basic, that should be expected in a romantic relationship, and the woman is like, “Oh my god, he’s just so amazing he does such a—“. No.

He’s doing what he fucking should when he’s in a relationship which is being there for his partner. That’s not a gold star. That is the lowest frickin bar in the world. So, yeah. Stop. It’s probably your new relationship energy, even though you’ve been in this situation for 18 months. It is definitely— You’ve got some rose tinted glasses on when it comes to C. Probably because he comforts you so well. But he’s not all you think he is because if he was really an emotionally responsible person, he would go, “Huh”.

And this whole— this whole bullshit about like his wife is really mean to him or whatever. Anytime a man slags off his ex think about that situation. Okay. I’m not denying that maybe his wife isn’t that great and that may be the situation. Then why is he there? So, no, like, like come on. Think about this for a minute, like. You cannot have someone who is emotionally responsible and is going to be there for you and you’re giving him all these excuses and saying, “oh he’s— but he’s lovely, he has a kind heart, and he just doesn’t want to leave his wife because he loves her but he, but he does want to be with me, but she’s really bad and he does really want—“ This such a lie.

If it’s not a lie, it’s such a fucking cop out like, come on. If he if their relationship is that bad and if he really doesn’t want to be with his wife, then why is he fucking there? Why is he there? What is his frickin excuse. 18 months?! Come on. No, no, no, no, and like you’re basically— here’s the thing. If you are monogamous and you—  let’s just put aside the polyamory for a situation. If you are  monogamous, and you were dating— and I know that people cheat for a lot of different reasons and it can be complicated and I get it. Generally speaking, though, if you’re monogamous and you are cheating on someone with someone. What that tells you about that person who you are cheating with, even though A knows that you’re that you’re with C and is fine with it. But C’s wife doesn’t know. He is okay with cheating.

He is okay with non-ethical behaviour. He is okay lying to his wife and it stands to reason that if he’s okay lying to his wife, he’s okay lying to you. Like, and it means that if your relationship goes sour, or for whatever reason it doesn’t work out, then he’s fine lying to you. Like you’re not special and he might say that, but you really really really really need to not to believe that because… Yeah, it’s just not a good situation. He’s not as great as you’re making him out to be. He may be great at emotionally validating you but once again that is not an extreme relationship skill. That’s just a basic thing, and he probably knows that and he’s using that a bit to his advantage. So that’s one thing.

The other thing that really concerns me about A that I need to mention is that your relationship changed. He decided he’s ethical solo polyam, and now you only see him one day, two days a week. Where’s the fucking conversation about that? Like, I totally get that people can explore polyamory and come to find out that different situations suit them better. And oh actually I don’t really want to be in a primary relationship. I actually want to have more freedom, and that’s fine. That is absolutely fine. But a discussion needs to be had. And why hasn’t A sat you down and said “Hey look, I’m not feeling this primary situation.”

Like it just seems like all this sort of just slowly happened to you. And there was just no discussion and now you only see A one to two days a week, and it’s just… I mean that’s not to say that like. It’s not to say that you necessarily would then go “well I don’t want this” and A would go “okay let’s stay primary then”, but at least

if he had some kind of discussion with you, then you would be able to go, “Hmm, I’m not cool with that. Like one to two days a week isn’t great for me”. And maybe you could have, like, I don’t know, slowly, you could have gone from six days a week to five days a week to four day— like you could have, it could have been a little easier on you, especially since A doesn’t even emotionally support you very well in general anyway.

But instead he’s just sort of— and I don’t know how fast this happened like if it was just like, one day he was like, “Oh, I’m gonna move into the second room and blah blah blah”. But I mean you gotta have a kind of discussion about it. He’s not had any kind of like… how was that ethical? How is it ethical to just slowly completely pull away from your partner without really addressing it or talking about it? That’s… that’s not great, like for any kind of relationship. So, yeah, I think you are in a bit of a situation but. And I wish that I had some something better to advise because I feel like even if you sit down and have a conversation with A and say, “one or two days a week isn’t cutting it for me”. I don’t think A is wanting to give you anymore. I don’t think that’s going to fix that situation.

You can absolutely leave C, but you know— you’re just going to leave C. He’s not going to dump his wife for you. And even if he does, you are in a situation where he does have a problem with you being with A. Like he does— even though he’s okay with it right now, he does have a problem with it and he’s going to want you to dump A. He is going to want that. And then he’s going to bring up the fact that he dumped his wife for you. So like, don’t pull the frickin wool over your eyes and realise that he is—  that’s what’s gonna happen if he did dump his wife.

He would then immediately expect you to dump A. I doubt— heavily, heavily, heavily, heavily, heavily doubt that he will be okay with you being with A in any context, even if you only saw A one to  two days a week, he’d never be okay with it. So, and you say “oh well, maybe I could go 24/7 do monogamy with C”, but the thing is, you’d be doing monogamy with somebody who cheated. And is that really what you want? Like, I’m not saying that like people— like “once a cheater always a cheater” or anything like that. Like people cheat for all sorts of different reasons. It can be really complicated but at the same time, if he’s not even acknowledging the fact that what he’s doing is wrong…

You know I just, I don’t think that that would be a good situation for you to be in, especially because, if you just happen to fall in love with another co-worker, there ain’t no way C is ever going to hear of it. You know, if you do find out that you are more polyamorous than you think you are, you’re kind of screwed in that regard. So, yeah, I think that the thing that you need to do is be comfortable being alone. Unfortunately I think that you need to dump C immediately, like it’s— Cheating is not polyamory. What you’re doing isn’t polyamory, I’m sorry. Cheating is not polyamory. You’re helping C cheat, which isn’t polyamory. It’s unethical. It’s wrong. You shouldn’t do it, even if you love C so much, I get that. But it’s wrong. So you need to dump him. Like, you need to make him choose.

Sometimes making someone choose isn’t a bad thing. It’s not always controlling and bad. Sometimes when you say, “Actually you need to choose because if you don’t, it’s unethical. And I’m not going to participate in that”. So giving him an ultimatum isn’t a terrible thing. It doesn’t make you a terrible person. It just makes you a person with self respect and dignity. So, do that. Get rid of C. I don’t even think you should continue dating him. I think even if he dumped his wife for you. I mean, ask him say— I guarantee you… I guarantee you anything if you say, “oh, if you dump your wife…”, he’s gonna go “well then you dump A”. Like that’s gonna be— that is going to be what it is. Like, honestly, so I just think you should just get rid of C.

I get that he’s emotionally supportive but you need— what you need out of the situation is to learn how to be alone. Because, especially if you’re going to be polyamorous. You can’t always have, you know, it’s not Pokemon. It’s not Polymon. It’s not picking as many people, and avoiding being alone by having as many partners as possible. Sometimes you are alone. Sometimes you have to be comfortable being by yourself and being alone and being fine with that. You need to be more comfortable being alone.

You need to let go of the expectation that A is going to give you the emotional support that you want. That’s just not going to happen. And I think if you focus more on yourself, maybe see a therapist, if it’s accessible to you for yourself, find ways to gain emotional support through yourself, through therapy, through your friendship network, because that’s the thing. Polyamory is not just about, usually —it’s not just about multiple romantic relationships, it’s also— many people feel like polyamory opens them up to seeing all relationships as equally valid, so your friendships are also important relationships that should also be valued and that should also, you know— romantic relationships don’t necessarily mean so much more than friendships.

So your friends can emotionally validate you. Can you accept and receive emotional validation and help through your friends? Does it always have to be somebody that you’re sleeping with, or that you’re romantic with? So that’s what I think… that’s what you need to focus on. Get rid of C. Get rid of C completely. And you could keep A, but you need to let go of the expectation that A is going to be like C. There are other stuff to work on with A. Like whether or not you keep A around like, I don’t know… I do kind of feel like if you are in a relationship with someone who is unwilling to listen to you or if you can’t actually talk to him about anything— like even a friend should somewhat be able to emotionally validate you and that’s why I feel like if you had better friends, you would actually be like, “Oh, actually. Fuck A.”

Because sometimes and I’ve had that situation before where I have been in a partnership that I thought was fulfilling. And then I had friendships and I was like actually my friends are being more supportive than my partner is. So why am I with this person? And I think that if you, you know you could keep A around for a little bit. But I do think that once you realise that you can provide your emotional validation and you can get that from your friends, your community from people around you like… have more friends. Like it doesn’t always have to be someone you’re dating and I think once you do that you will then look at the relationship with A and you’ll be like, “Actually, you aren’t even that good of a friend. So maybe not. “

That’s kind of like my best advice to sum up really quickly. Get rid of C. No, no, no with C. Seek multiple fulfilling relationships, rather than collecting multiple unfulfilling relationships until you reach some sort of stasis. It’s not what I think, personally, what I think polyamory should be about. Focus on yourself. Be okay with being alone. Be okay with finding emotional support in people that aren’t immediately romantically connected to you. Value your friendships more.

And, yeah, seek polyamory friendly therapy if you have access to that. Be okay with being alone, because I do think that unless you have flexible schedules with five to seven partners on the go or your life is set up in a completely different way, you’re going to have to sometimes be okay with being alone and I think more people— monogamous people even in general, need to be okay with being alone. Because when you’re not okay with being alone then you stay in relationships that you shouldn’t. Yeah. I hope that helps and good luck.

Episode 42: The Dreaded Veto

When you’ve conceded to many rules but your partner demands you dump another, what do you do?

That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help.

Discussion Topic: What do you most regret so far?

Listen below or on Libsyn. You can also find the podcast on Spotify, Apple, and other providers. Or, conversely, use our RSS feed.

Episode 42 – The Dreaded Veto

When you’ve conceded to many rules but your partner demands you dump another, what do you do?  That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help. Find the full audio transcription of this episode on Patreon. Discussion Topic – What do you most regret so far?

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

Thank you to Chris Albery-Jones at albery-jones.com for the theme music and a big thanks for the podcast art to Dom Duong at domduong.com.

Podcast transcript

Letter:

I’m in a tough situation and would love your input.

I’ve been in a relationship with my wife for 10 years, we’ve been open for 7, married for 5. I’ll say that aside from sexual intimacy, my life with my wife is beautiful. We have adventures, we have amazing friends, we travel, and we have shared goals. She’s struggled with depression off and on, and the most recent time lasted 3 years. It’s been challenging, and I’ve supported her through all of it.

When we got together, I didn’t know that for my own fulfillment, I absolutely needed to prioritize sexual compatibility. To be happy, I need to feel sexually valued and desired by a partner. A strong, ongoing sexual connection is a cornerstone of a romantic relationship for me.

When we started dating, we had a pretty good sexual connection for about 3 months, but then her interest in sex began waning. Since then, she’s generally rejected me when I’ve attempted sexual intimacy, she’s avoided flirting with me so as not to lead me on, but when I’ve come right out and asked whether she’s attracted to me, she says she is. I’ve asked if she would prefer we take sex off the table in our relationship, and she got angry and said no. I’ve also read a lot on AVEN and asked if she’s noticed anything on the site that resonates with her— and I told her I would love and support her however she identifies. She got angry with me when I asked, and said no.

In the times that we have been sexually intimate, it hasn’t been very fulfilling for me, because it felt disconnected, and she didn’t seem present— for the most part she’s had no passion, no zeal. She’s even fallen asleep during sex on 3 or 4 different occasions. For a while I thought something was wrong with me. After almost 10 years of continual rejection, my self-esteem was shredded and my sexual well-being was impacted in a lot of ways. I’m now working to heal those wounds with a sex-positive therapist.

Because I was young, naive, and in love with her, I always made excuses, expecting things to change. I would tell myself, “Things will be better when x, y, or z happens… (name any and all external factors here).” I tried a lot different things to fix it, but I tried to tread lightly because the last thing I wanted was to make her feel pressured or inadequate.

Over the 7 years that our relationship has been open, my wife and I have had multiple connections with others, and it’s always been a really fun and positive element of our relationship. In fact, she always said she thought it was hot when I had sexual encounters with other people. It was fun for me, and I felt sexual validation from my other sex partners, but I found that I still felt empty and unhappy, because my connections were casual, rather than the sustained sexual, romantic bond that I need to be happy.

My wife and I never defined ourselves as poly[am], and we’ve never gone as far as to have girlfriends or other committed romantic relationships. We’ve had connections that have felt more romantic than platonic, but we’ve always said that our connections would be based more on friendship and sex rather than romance and love.

A year and a half ago, I met someone who I have an incredible, life-changing connection with. (I’ll call her A.) In the time that I’ve known her, I’ve felt more happy and fulfilled than I have in almost 10 years.

Several months ago, my wife started seeing a therapist to work through her sexual and mental health blocks. I’ve been supportive of her the whole way. She’s now in the process of rediscovering her sexuality and is asking me to end things with A so that we can work on our (nonexistent) sexual connection. She says that it’s incredibly painful for her when I spend time with A, because it triggers her feelings of inadequacy— that she couldn’t give me what I needed, so she feels that I replaced her with A.

My wife and I are seeing a poly[am]/queer/sex-friendly therapist together, and even still, the therapy isn’t helping, and my wife is devastated every time I do so much as go to lunch with A.

I don’t want to hurt her, and I don’t want to destroy our marriage, but she says she’s distraught and can’t live like this anymore. I want to be a good partner and continue to support her. And I suppose being a good partner means ending things with A. But just the thought of it makes my stomach churn. It’s so hard to lose someone so important to me. I can’t string A along like this, and she doesn’t deserve to be treated as disposable.

My wife is upset that I’m hesitating to end things with A, and she’s telling me that if our marriage was my priority I’d do it.

I’ve developed strong feelings for A, which is not actually allowed in our version of non-monogamy. But I want it to be, and I want the opportunity to expand into this connection. Despite developing feelings, I’ve continued to respect my wife’s boundaries. To help her feel comfortable with A, I’ve complied with the rules that she’s lain out over these past 18 months. (A is well aware of all the boundaries as well.)

The thing is, the sexual connection with my wife is not there, and I don’t know that it ever will be. When we are intimate, it’s not pleasurable for me, and in fact makes me a little uncomfortable, like being intimate with a family member. I don’t know whether or not this can be fixed. I hope that it can?

I just don’t see a way out. Not one where I can be happy, anyway. If I lose A, then I’ll go back to living the way I was before. Content enough, but never fulfilled, because it means abandoning a big part of myself. If I don’t end it, I’ll devastate my wife, injure our relationship beyond repair, and likely lose my marriage and the entire beautiful life we’ve built together.

The rules I’ve complied with have included: Seeing A a limited number of times per month, a curfew when I do see her, texting my wife every couple hours, including each time I move from one location to another when I’m with A, and setting up times for the 3 of us to hang out. (For a time, I couldn’t spend money or go out for meals with A, so A and I would watch movies or play board games at her apartment, but then my wife changed her mind and asked me not to hang out at A’s apartment. But neither of these last 2 rules are in place anymore.) To further demonstrate to my wife that she’s my priority, A and I paused for 5 months last spring. A was understanding, but it didn’t help my wife, and it only hurt A and me.

My wife has an intense connection with someone I’ll call H. They had (and still have) a close, special bond, but then my wife deescalated their relationship to platonic friendship when we moved out of state 4 years ago. At the time, she told me it was because she wasn’t feeling it anymore. Now, she’s revealed that it was incredibly difficult and painful for her to end things with H, and that she only did it to prioritize me. (I was going through a rough time with the loss of a friend.) I never asked her to do this, and I never would have. Last weekend we were all at a wedding together, and my wife expressed interest in reconnecting sexually with H again. I gave her my blessing, because I truly do want this for her. But when I bring up A, my wife tells me that she can have this with H, because A is “a different situation.”

Response:

So this is an incredibly unfair situation. That’s my first comment about this.

Like, it’s so massively unfair in so many different ways. Like when you first started describing what was happening, and you started saying about, you know, how you basically haven’t been sexually compatible. And that’s the truth of it, you’re not sexually compatible, whether it’s due to reasons that, you know, your wife needs to work through things, or it’s due to her being naturally the way she is, which you’ve also been really, really supportive of, you just aren’t sexually compatible. And you’ve tried your best to work through this. And yet, it’s never enough.

And then you add this bit at the end, where you’ve complied with rules about, you know, you have— you can only see her a certain— see A a certain times number of times per month, and you have a curfew, that you’re texting her when you’re moving from location to location like… And then you’re not allowed to spend money together, and then you’re not allowed to hang out at the apartment, and then you’re not allowed this, you’re not allowed that. You know what, why not, instead of demonstrating that your wife is a priority, demonstrate that you are a priority to yourself?

You are allowed to be happy and you are bending over backwards in all of these situations to make your wife happy. And you’re doing it sacrificing your own happiness. And it’s also impacting A. Like, as you said, A is not disposable, and she shouldn’t be treated like she’s disposable. And given the fact that you know, you mentioned this side relationship with H like.. if anything— Well, first of all, she lies to you and for the re— like she can’t even honestly communicate about it because she knows that she’s making this decision. And I mean, it’s just wild like I don’t even have the words to…

She sacrifices something for you without telling you without you requesting it and then expects you to do the same when when you never talk about it or agreed on it. And the result is that it you know, you are being hurt and A is being hurt. Ahe should know exactly how it feels to just give up a relationship and throw it out the window. But she doesn’t care. Because it’s all about prioritizing the marriage and prioritizing you two and prioritizing her. What about prioritizing yourself? Like, you know, you’ve given up so much in this relationship, to try and make her happy. And it’s not even about the sex anymore.

Like, here’s the thing, like, if you had come to me to ask for advice about rules and starting off, I would have told you to stay the hell away from rules that say, ”I won’t fall in love with somebody” because I don’t think that’s realistic. So it already kind of got off on the wrong foot. But it became— it has now become something where you’re just literally not allowed to have anything that makes your wife feel slightly uncomfortable. And unfortunately, sometimes things make people feel uncomfortable. And I can understand why that freaks people out.

But she’s just kind of like, dictating what you’re allowed to do with other people. Now you can’t even talk about A. You can’t even go out to lunch with A without it being you ripping her heart out. And it’s not fair. Like that’s— it’s just fundamentally so unfair. The situation is… I’m like angry on your behalf by how unfair The situation is. now in this situation, like, you know, if it were one thing if… if she were making the simple request, and there hadn’t been all these other issues about H and about her basically controlling every aspect of your relationship with A and she just wanted to

stop non-monogamy because the reasons that you started non monogamy were because of the sexual incompatibility.

You know, then I might ask you to examine the reasons that you went into non monogamy and be really honest about them. Because the thing is, is that the whole reason for you— you need to get rid of A because A reminds her of her inability to please you. And I just think that you guys need to be really, really honest about this. You did go into non monogamy seemingly, unless there’s something you haven’t included here, because she didn’t want to have sex with you in the way that you wanted. Like, you have a base level incompatibility. And I know that it sucks. And I know that it’s going to be a source of insecurity for a lot of people.

But sometimes people are at a base level incompatible. And the only thing that you can do is either break up, or you can choose to make some compromises. And this is a subject, in terms of sex, you know, where you can make compromises by opening up your relationship. And I don’t think it necessarily has to be about incompatibilities. It doesn’t have to be like your wife wasn’t enough. It’s about the fact that for whatever reason, she wasn’t interested in having sex and rather than pressuring her or, you know, making the situation into something that you would resent, you both agree to something else.

And she also had other encounters it sounds like not just with H, but maybe with other people. So you know, the kind of trigger for it, even if you don’t necessarily believe she’s completely and utterly, you know, not good enough or anything like that— the trigger for it was very much that you wanted to have sex with other people. And if you revisit that and say, “Well, our connection isn’t really, you know what I need yet. So I don’t want to end my relationships with other people”. And I think that’s totally and completely valid.

And it’s not fair after all of this stuff like I am— quite frankly, I’m surprised that A is still hanging around. Because if anyone asked me to pause our relationship for somebody else for five months, and I was being jerked around like this, and my partner had to like, text someone every time we moved, and then oh, now they can’t spend money on me or we can’t— like I would have dumped you quite honestly a long time ago, because I wouldn’t be okay with someone who’s not involved in the relationship dictating my relationship. So I’m surprised A has held on for this long given given the push pull of this.

So it’s just not fair. Like and and you’ve demonstrated that she’s a priority over you. You’ve already demonstrated that and yet it feels like her level of anxiety— and I totally understand her level of anxiety and I don’t blame her for having it. I don’t think she’s a horrible person. But there’s a thing about anxiety where if you give it an inch, it will take a mile and this is one of the reasons why I really advise people to sit with their discomfort when they’re in polyamorous situations, sit with that and don’t immediately start creating rules around it. Sit with it, go through it know that you’ll survive.

Because if you just, you know, I found it very similar to the anxiety that I’ve felt in other situations in my life when I’ve had compulsions. And when I’ve been like, “Oh, you know, I’ve created, you know, these fears in my head that, Oh, I can’t do this thing or something horrible will happen”. And the minute I fed into that, and I stopped doing that thing, it— just more things will be added to that list. Oh, now I can’t do this, because something horrible will happen. Oh, now I can’t do this because something horrible will  happen. Feeding my anxiety or validating it never made it go away, it only just helped it grow.

And I think that, because you’ve complied with these rules, it’s only just fed her anxiety. She’s only allowed her anxiety to continue to grow. Because it’s just growing and growing like at first, you know, you’ll only can see her a certain number of times a month, then you have a curfew, then you you know, and I don’t know at what point these rules were all in effect, or whether they were all in effect all at the same time. But now you can’t even talk about her. Because, you know, it tears out her heart every time you talk about her, it’s— or go out to lunch with her like… it’s growing and growing. And it’s, it’s not— she’s never really going to be satisfied unless she either addresses this anxiety and learns how to cope with it with whatever therapist she has.

Or until you break up with A. Like, unfortunately, she’s putting you in that position. And you throughout this whole letter, like you’re trying to be a good partner, and trying to prioritise her and you’re— like, it’s so sad, because it’s, it’s she didn’t she’s not doing that for you. in this situation. You know, the only time when she’s actually prioritising you is when you don’t even ask for it. And she’s making herself into a martyr for a cause that no one asked her to be a martyr for. So it’s just— it’s not a fair situation. And unfortunately, I don’t— Unless your wife decides to address her anxiety, I don’t know as that there is a situation where everything’s gonna work out fine.

I think that you need to put your foot down and prioritise yourself. Okay, stop prioritising her, stop prioritisng the marriage and prioritise yourself. You are happy with A. You have this great connection with her. And it’s not so much about choosing A over your wife, it’s about saying to your wife, “I want to be in a non-monogamous relationship, I want to continue my relationship with A. I will not be dumping A at your request. I will not be— and I don’t think you should— I will no longer be allowing you to dictate the time that I spend with A and when I can. Obviously I’ll try and work with our schedules and make sure that I give you enough time, but you will not be dictating to me at what times I can or can’t be with A and I will work with you to rebuild our sexual connection. I will work with you to rebuild our trust. I will work with you to rebuild whatever it is we need to rebuild. But I’m not going to get rid of this relationship to do that, because I don’t believe I need to do that. I don’t believe that A is preventing me or preventing you from actually working through this. You may be feeling insecure about A. You may be feeling challenged about the situation with A and we can work through that. But I’m not going to react to your insecurity around it by dumping someone that I care about.”

And I think you can totally do that. You can still continue to support her and you have supported her. All the times that you’ve been with A you have consistently demonstrated that you care about her even when it has been unfair to you and unfair to A and I don’t think you should do that anymore. But I do think you can say “I’m absolutely willing to stay in this relationship with you. I’m absolutely willing to make sure that I give you the energy that this needs in order to work”. It’s not about prioritising one relationship over another. Because it’s— that’s really just weird.

Like, I mean, imagine if you know, you were tending a sick cousin or something like that, like, would you be thinking about “oh, I have the sick cousin but I need to prioritise my marriage”? I just human relationships don’t work that way. Like and it’s and it’s just weird and competitive to be like, yeah, I need to— I have this other relationship but my wife is more important than anything else. Like that’s just not how humans work. Different— like obviously, like, you know, we care more about the people that we have relationships with than random people we see off the street at certain points, you know, but I just feel like even those cut and dry situations are like, you know, anyone who forces you to choose… That’s not a good thing. And she shouldn’t be forcing you to choose.

And if she’s using exact language, like you described about saying that basically, if you cared about her, you’d dump A. That’s just not fair. That’s absolutely, completely unfair. And whatever couples therapist you’re working with, if she’s saying that while a couples therapist is in the room with you, and the couples therapist is not saying anything about that, then you need to fire that person and find a new one. Because that is fundamentally horrible. I mean, it’s emotional blackmail, like absolutely, no, no, no, no, no, no.

So yeah, to sum up, yeah, this is an incredibly unfair situation. And I’m sorry that you’re in this situation, because it’s really shitty. I think that A is absolutely not disposable. And you shouldn’t treat her like that. And if anything, your wife should know what it feels like to have to— to feel like you have to dump somebody, even though you never asked for that. And the biggest kind of message that I have for you is that rather than prioritising your marriage, you need to prioritise yourself, you need to secure your own mask before you start putting on everyone else’s mask, and figure out what it is that you want.

And put your foot down and say like no, and if that’s not a tolerable situation for your wife, like, I understand, like, you know, yes, it’s going to feel shitty when you know, your partner, and you have a have an in compatibility. I mean, I’ve had similar situations with my domestic partner, where I’m not a big party person. And my domestic partner is a big party person. And it took me a long time to not feel inadequate. It took me a long time to not be scared that my partner would chuck me and leave me for someone who loves parties too.

And I understand that and she’s allowed to feel those feelings. But just because she feels those feelings, doesn’t mean that A needs to be thrown out, you know, and chucked out. Like that’s not how you handle that. You can be absolutely willing to work through her feelings with her, absolutely willing to reassure her. But

I wouldn’t dump A especially not in this situation. And I would actually stop doing all of these things like I would absolutely refuse to allow someone else to tell me how often I could see someone else.

Like it’s one thing if you were going out with A all the time, and she said, “Hey, I don’t see you, as often as I’d like to see you and it’s really hurting me”. That’s one thing. But she can’t dictate to you, the number of times you’re allowed to see someone per month you’re not a child. You don’t have a curfew. And I don’t think you should put up with that anymore, let alone dumping A like, absolutely not.

So yeah, I’m sorry, I’m just— I’m kind of very frustrated on your behalf. It’s just… it just seems like you’ve, you’ve done so much. You’ve bent over backwards for this person. And then they have the audacity to say to you that you need to dump this person or else you don’t care about me like, wow, that’s horrible. Yeah, and I’m really I’m really sorry, again, that you’re in this situation. But yeah, I don’t I don’t think you should get rid of A. I think you should put your foot down, figure out what you what your wants and needs are. I think you know what they are. Put your foot down. And unfortunately, if it makes— if it means that, you know your wife can’t be with you anymore, then maybe that is the way that things should be, unfortunately.

Because you know someone who— is someone who clearly isn’t prioritising you. Just.. I don’t know if it’s worth it. To be honest, even— I know it seems hard because you put 10 years of your life into this situation. But don’t don’t do something for a sunken cost fallacy. And that’s— look that up. It’s basically the idea that like you’ve already put so much into this, you have to keep putting things into it. Like, okay, 10 years, that’s a long time. But just— as I said in the beginning of this episode, didn’t even mean for it to be necessarily related to the letter today. But just because you’ve known someone for longer doesn’t mean that they have your best interests at heart.

So yeah, I hope this helps and good luck.

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Can you learn compersion?

I really enjoyed reading “Thirteen things I wish I’d learned before choosing non-monogamy.” I’ll start by saying I’ve started exploring my sexuality and what makes me happy just this June. So, I’m still learning. My original intent was not related to non-monogamous relationships at all. It just so happened that in my own explorations I met someone that is poly[am].

This person is amazing in so many ways. He communicates, he’s sensual, he’s understanding, he’s knowledgeable, he’s a giver and very open and not afraid to discuss anything. And there’s a great connection that was instantaneous when we first met, though I had no intentions of getting involved past our first meeting. But he’d mentioned he’d enjoyed our times together and would like to continue being intimate with me and getting to know each other, as long as it was ok with me. I couldn’t say no, it felt great to be with him, if only once a month for short periods. But from the beginning he’d said he doesn’t have the bandwidth for more than what he already was giving me.

That he already has partners and that when he partners with someone he invests time and much more emotional energy than what he can give currently. He works a lot too, so he wanted to be clear in any expectations as he doesn’t like to cause people pain. So, even with all this, I thought it’s better to have what I can of him in my life than not at all. Which I still would like, but it’s not easy.

I struggle so much with issues, like issues with self worth stemming from things in my past. That I’m learning I need to face as it’s stunted me in opening up in any of my relationships (platonic or romantic). But then there are the insecurities that stem from knowing I’m not a partner and can’t be one. And all that I read says that these insecurities can be worked on with your partner. But what if you’re not a partner?

How can you work on these insecurities when you’re not something more? When it’s supposed to just be casual and fun? It’s hard when this (whatever it is) is helping me grow in so many other ways and actually makes me happy most times. But it can hurt and be lonely sometimes. I become afraid to go to events where his other partners will be, where I’d have to look at what being his partner would be like but can’t have. That allow for the insecurities to set in without an outlet since I’m not partnered. How do you learn compersion in this scenario?

First and foremost, personally, I absolutely despise “compersion”.

Okay, maybe that’s a bit strong. But I deeply resent the term. Mostly because of letters like yours. It’s not your fault at all, but you’ve fallen exactly into the trap that the term “compersion” creates. For as much as people say “There’s no one right way to do polyamory”, that’s just not what the term “compersion” creates. I wrote a bit in the article you referenced about how it’s not compulsory — and I think that you should really take that on.

You don’t learn compersion. You just feel it or you don’t. And there isn’t anything wrong with not feeling it. And likewise, compersion is not an inoculation for jealousy. You can be both jealous but also happy your partner has found someone they like at the same time. You’re making a lot of the assumptions that I hoped to challenge in my article but let me expand on some of those and why you need to reframe your perspective, specifically referring to these topics.

  • What stops people from opening up
  • Insecurity or insufficiency
  • What makes a partner

What stops people from opening up

In your letter, you said that your insecurities and lack of self worth has “stunted” you from opening up. I definitely do think that someone’s lack of self worth and insecurities can make them afraid to open up to others, but what I want to avoid is you assuming that polyamory or open relationships are somehow going to help this. Polyamory isn’t a therapy program and it isn’t necessarily going to encourage you to be more open. In fact, if you’re insecure and scared, it’s going to be harder to operate in a different relationship style which lacks the cultural script that monogamy often provides people.

I mentioned in the article you referenced that people often mistake being insecure for self-hate and I do think you’re making that mistake here. Someone who believes themselves to be all around worthy can still have moments of insecurity. You’re setting yourself up here for failure by assuming there is some self-worth pinnacle you’re going to reach and that you won’t struggle with periods of insecurity your whole life. I think even the most well adjusted person would still struggle with insecurity — especially when faced with trying something new.

Even if you were to decide this was too hard, you might still be faced with these issues and I think the best way to actually address them is to not set yourself up for believing that this is your obstacle particularly in getting what you want from this person. He’s being quite honest with you about his ability and resources, which is good, but you’re making the mistake of believing that solving your insecurity will change his mind or somehow make you okay with having less, which brings me to the next issue here.

Insecurity or insufficiency

Someone who has a large amount of self worth will feel insecure or not happy with a relationship that doesn’t meet their needs. Sometimes there is both a problem with personal insecurity and not getting what you need in a relationship and that’s where it’s tricky. Not every bad feeling is a reflection of a personal problem that you need to address in polyamory. Sometimes you feel bad because you’re not getting what you need in a relationship and I’m wondering if that’s what’s going on here.

So many people who try polyamory assume every single negative thing they feel is either jealousy or a personal problem. You said it yourself. There are insecurities that stem from you just not being a full partner in that sense and that isn’t an insecurity that can be solved if what it is is actually an insufficiency in the relationship.

And this would be true if you were in, for example, a monogamous relationship with someone who had a time intense demanding career and you needed more attention than they could give you. You would probably also begin to feel insecure — but not as insecure because you don’t have the immediate thought process of assuming you’re not as good as a specific other person or the insecurity you felt wouldn’t feel the same because it would be over a career, not other people.

I don’t think your insecurity is an outlet for anything. I think it’s a very real and understandable feeling to have when you, especially being monogamous are used to the feelings you’re having with this person being coupled with more than what he’s able to give you. Many people, especially who only have relationships where they either don’t have a primary or domestic partner (and want one) but have partners who do have those things feel a gap in their lives for a short period of time. It’s not really a personal fault. It’s normal to feel. But some of this can be solved by understanding what he means specifically in terms of his boundaries.

What makes a partner

Some people have very clear definitions of what makes someone a partner. Other people, not so much. And personal definitions of what makes a partner can wildly vary. My domestic partner has people in their life who, if they were in my life in the exact same way, I would consider a “partner” but my partner doesn’t consider them “partners”.

Because we don’t really have a diverse set of terminologies for the different types of relationships we can have with people, we’re stuck with one group of words (partner, girlfriend, boyfriend, lover, etc.) that can all really mean very different things to very different people, especially to those of us who have no interest in formal marriage.

So what you need to understand is what he means by “bandwidth”. It sounds like what he’s afraid of is that you, by virtue of trying out non-monogamy for the first time and not having any other partners, may want to lean on him for emotional support that he can’t provide because he already provides that to other people.

What he was trying to do was manage those expectations with you and he did it, I think, in as clear of a way as he could. We can set physical boundaries quite easily in terms of the number of times we may think we can visit, but it’s really hard to grok what ‘emotional energy’ really means until it’s not being given or we’re giving too much of it.

With the way your partner has behaved and understanding that you’re new to polyamory, I think he’s going to understand as well that you might be confused by new situations. He doesn’t sound like the kind of person who wrongfully expects you to be happy all of the time, especially if you’re not getting as much as you’d like from him and you want more.

That’s going to hurt but that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re doing something wrong or that you should stop seeing him. He’s not going to be able to solve that hurt and working on your insecurities won’t solve that hurt. That might be something you need to consider solving by seeking other partners for yourself.

Otherwise, you can ask to talk to him about your fears around seeing his other partners. Because I doubt necessarily that he treats you physically different from his other partners. He probably is the same amount of loving towards you as he is towards his other partners. It’s just that if you need to rely on him, he can’t commit to that.

But it’s not to say he feels less for you or that he would be less loving with you than other people. In general, I think if you feel it would cause you upset and you don’t have to go to events with his other partners, than don’t put yourself through some emotional decathlon just to prove a point. Avoid unnecessary pain and drama where it need not ought to be caused.

Because I do think that it will remind you, even if he doesn’t treat you different, of what you can’t have. And ultimately this is where you need to figure out what makes a partner for you. Is this relationship meeting all of your needs? It doesn’t sound like it, even as wonderful as it is. Some people can operate in relationships like these because they need or want a lot of alone time. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case for you. So you need to decide if you’re going to seek other partners to address what’s missing or if you can’t or don’t want to do that — in which case, you’re going to have to accept the level he can commit to you and decide if the moments of loneliness and pain are worth the ultimate benefit he brings to your life.

In summary

If it’s accessible for you, I definitely would advise a polyamory friendly therapist to talk this through with because every relationship involves compromise and no relationship is without some type of difficulty. It may be that there is something in staying with this, even if it’s not 100% what you need right now. Because having 40% of what you need right now is better than 0% in some ways. A therapist would be able to talk you through that.

Overall, though, I think you need to stop setting yourself up for failure by assuming this is a personal problem and not a fundamental lack of satisfaction you may have with this level of commitment. You need to figure out if you’re willing and able to date others and what a “partner” is specifically to you so you can have a better understanding of the ways this relationship doesn’t meet those needs.

Give yourself permission to feel sadness, fear and insecurity without assuming there is something wrong with you that you need to fix.

I hope this helps and good luck!

Do you have a question?

If you have a non-monogamous relationships question to ask, please email it to nonmonogamyhelp@gmail.com. Your question will be posted anonymously.

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Curing codependency with polyamory

I was in a three-year monogamous relationship recently. I had an experience with the entheogen/psychedelic ayahuasca that helped me see that many of the issues in that relationship and all my previous relationships had roots in co-dependency. I realized that exploring ethical non-monogamy could be a powerful tool to help me release some of my own co-dependent habits, mostly around clinging too tightly to my own standards and expectations of my monogamous partners to take care of themselves in certain ways that didn’t always have a direct impact on me and that I had a new-found wish to simply accept and hold space for change (or not-change).

This thought process was also sparked by a friend who expressed a desire to enter into a romantic relationship with me. So, I wasn’t just introducing my existing partner to the general idea of non-monogamy, but also to my more immediate desire to begin a relationship with another man. My existing partner tried to the extent that he could, but it was overwhelming for him and he acted out in ways that I found fundamentally unacceptable and I ended that relationship.

The problem now is that the man I began a new relationship with was also never interested in non-monogamy. He was ok with me continuing my existing relationship, but once I was out of that relationship and exploring the possibility of others, he expressed discomfort. Finally he asked me to choose non-monogamy or him.

I see great potential in my relationship with him that I haven’t seen in my other relationships. The communication and openness has been wonderful and he’s someone who really takes care of himself — and the lack of that in my last relationship was one of the things that sent me on this non-monogamy journey. I recently told this person that “I can’t do monogamy” in response to his request that I choose.

In the absence of a clear answer, I felt that choosing a personal principle over an individual might be the right path. But I find myself wondering if I’m holding onto an ideal instead of being present with what’s in front of me. I don’t know for sure yet whether non-monogamy is the right fit for me — I haven’t had a chance to fully explore it yet. I have a sense that it’s the best path for me, but I’m not clear on whether or not it’s so important for me that I want to choose it over someone I have grown to love.

There’s a lot going on here.

With the full recognition that I’m not a therapist (but I will be checking this with the therapist I work with), I’m not convinced that polyamory and/or non-monogamy are tools that can help people break bad habits. In fact, I think that codependency isn’t something that’s going to be solved by trying non-monogamy. You can accept and hold space for change within monogamy. And people can be codependent and be non-monogamous.

And actually, given what you’ve said about how your codependent habits have to do with with “clinging too tightly to my own standards and expectation of my monogamous partners to take care of themselves” — I don’t necessarily think that this is specifically codependency. You don’t explicitly say what sort of things your partners aren’t doing for themselves that frustrate you, but I wouldn’t describe that as being codependent. It’s not unreasonable or unrealistic for you to want your partners to take care of themselves and to feel frustrated when they don’t, even when it doesn’t have a direct impact on you.

Your aim shouldn’t be to distance yourself from these feelings but rather accept them and learn how to cope with them better. I don’t think non-monogamy is necessarily going to change that or fix that. That has to be done by seeking out therapy, if it’s accessible to you, and identifying ways of rerouting your energies to more productive things.

That said, it’s hard for me to be able to tell you whether or not you should or shouldn’t pursue non-monogamy or not. I think if your main motivation was seeing this change within yourself, it’s worth you really trying with someone who you have communication with and who does take care of themselves if you don’t have that behaviour anymore.

Ultimately, non-monogamy isn’t supposed to be a way for you to find other partners to distract you from one partner getting on your nerves or to keep someone who you have an incompatibility with around so you don’t have to hurt them. It’s about wanting more than one romantic and/or sexual relationship in your life or that freedom to explore that and I’m not sure if that’s really what you’re seeking.

Have some introspection with a polyamory friendly therapist and talk some of these things through. It’s possible to be someone who can do both non-monogamy and monogamy, it’s not always an either or situation. But what you don’t want to do is give up a good connection you have just because you feel you will reach some type of higher level more “adjusted” state as a non-monogamous person than you would being monogamous. Because it’s not a higher path, it’s just a different one.

I hope this helps and good luck.

Do you have a question?

If you have a non-monogamous relationships question to ask, please email it to nonmonogamyhelp@gmail.com. Your question will be posted anonymously.

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Episode 34: Afraid of Loss

Your partner is interested in polyamory (and so are you) but they are afraid of losing you. How do you move forward from that?

That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help.

Discussion Topic: Over the last five years, how do you think you have changed?

Listen below or on Libsyn. You can also find the podcast on Spotify, Apple, and other providers. Or, conversely, use our RSS feed.

Episode 34 – Afraid of Loss

Your partner doesn’t want to try polyamory because they are afraid to lose you. How do you move forward from that? That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help. Find the full audio transcription of this episode on Patreon. Discussion Topic – Over the last five years, how do you think you have changed?

Thank you to Chris Albery-Jones at albery-jones.com for the theme music and a big thanks for the podcast art to Dom Duong at domduong.com.

Podcast transcript

Letter:

Me and my wife have now been married for 3 years. It’s a very loving and happy relationship. About a year and a half in, my wife brought up the topic of polyamory and at first I was kind of taken aback just because I’ve always felt polyamorous but didn’t think it was normal because of societal norms. I didn’t want to feel like the typical guy just trying to be a player.

I did some research and come to find out many people are actually doing this. So we get to talking about it and it’s not something she wanted to try right away. Two years into the relationship and I bring it up again if she wants to give this a try. She wanted at first for us to be a triad then later decided we should look for our own partners which I was ok with. About 3 months down the line she no longer wants to continue doing this for fear of losing me. And myself being her husband did not want her to feel uncomfortable in our relationship decide we would stop and go back to being monogamous.

Three years in and in the back of my head this is still something I want to do and want to be part of my life. I don’t know how to bring this up to her and without her feeling less than of herself or even that she has to choose this or leave because I love her very dearly and don’t want to lose her but at the same time I want to express myself and be who I am.

Response:

So the biggest thing here is the fear of loss.

I think that a lot of people have this fear that… for an understandable reason, opening their relationship is going to make them lose their partner. From a certain logical perspective, this makes a lot of sense. Because you would think that if you allow your partner to sleep with other people or have relationships with other people, then they might sort of get wooed away from you.

And to a certain extent that could happen. It totally could happen. Like, her fear of this— even if you feel like quite honestly like it’s never gonna happen in your mind, her fear of this is very, very valid and makes a lot of sense, especially with all the narratives that she’s grown up around. You know, you say that you were afraid of being polyamorous or you felt that way but didn’t want to go that way because you didn’t think it was normal, and you thought that it was just about being a player.

And that whole societal narrative kind of gives you this idea that exclusivity means love. That in order to express love with someone, or for someone, you have to be exclusive with them. And it also kind of encourages the idea that being jealous of who your partner is attracted to when you’re with them, or showing that kind of thing is a sign of love as well. There’s a lot built up around that.

And I think the society we’re also surrounded with, encourages us to see the result of a relationship as a win, competitively. So you know, you can’t sell things to happy people who are happy with themselves and happy with what’s going on in their lives jenerally speaking. You can create a kind of demand by you know, making people feel scared. And I think that we grow up in a society that tells us— unless you grew up in a very different society, and apologies for assuming— but the society I grew up in at least tells me that if I want to find a partner, then I have to be the best at everything.

I have to be, you know, amazing. I have to look this way. I have to do this thing. You know, it gives you a lot of messages about what you should be, so that you can find a partner. But the truth is that we don’t pick partners because they’re the best at everything, because nobody is the best at everything. And in fact, there are billions and billions of people on this planet, and guaranteed there will be somebody who’s better than you at any given skill that you have. So if your partner’s fear is that you’re going to find someone who’s better than her at something, you probably will. But that’s not why you’re with her.

You’re not with her because she’s the best at every single thing that she does or that you do together. So sometimes what I encourage people who have this fear to think about is that you know, to reframe their perspective that they have to be the best of everything.

The other thing that I would also encourage your wife to think about is that monogamy isn’t going to prevent that from happening. It’s totally understandable that she would fear losing you because everyone fears losing people that they love in their life. But there isn’t anything she’s going to be able to ultimately do to prevent that from happening. You know, if you are going to dump her for some random person, then that can still happen even if you’re monogamous.

It happens to monogamous people all the time. Monogamous people in closed relationships, meet somebody else decide that they don’t want to be with the partner that they’re monogamous with and dump them. That happens. So monogamy isn’t going to prevent that from happening. And it’s understandable that she’s afraid, you know. You’re always going to be afraid when you try new things. But there isn’t ultimately anything that she is going to be able to do to prevent that.

And even though it sounds quite horrible, you know, especially from your perspective.You’re trying to reassure her and trying to say you know, “I’m never gonna leave you. I love you”. You know all that kind of thing. The truth is that, you know, there isn’t anything either of you can do even being monogamous to prevent each other from leaving, if that’s what you really want to do.And trying to prevent that puts a burden on your shoulder to save and keep your partner by your actions when you can’t actually prevent that with your actions.

So I think if this is something that matters to you—I mean, you’ve only been… you said you’ve been married for three years. I don’t know if you’ve been together for longer than three years.

You could have just been married for three years, but then you were together for maybe five years before then. I don’t know how old you are. I don’t know if you have kids together. Those are all things to consider when it comes to this. But if this is something that you really feel is part of who you are, and it’s something that you really want to explore, you know…

Obviously, you don’t necessarily want to twist your arm into it, but at the same time, you know, if you were all of a sudden massively interested in golfing, and you desperately wanted to you know, go on a golf tour… And if you didn’t you feel miserable. You know, there’s all sorts of things in life that could come up that could be incompatibilities between you, that just won’t be able to be negotiable.

So I mean, even having kids, you know, if one of you does want to have kids, the other one doesn’t. I mean, there’s only so much you can negotiate around that. So if this is something that’s really, really important to you, and it is something that she showed an interest in, she’s just afraid of. I think that you can bring up a subject in order to kind of say, “I realized that you know, you didn’t want to try it, and you weren’t comfortable with it because of these fears. Can we talk about these fears?”

So you’re not really saying like, “I definitely want you to try it. I definitely have— you have to do this or I’ll leave”. It’s about talking about her fears. And it might help to even ask her to listen to this if that’s helpful for you, because… all of these fears she’s experienced. are totally normal. They’re exactly what people often experience when they open their relationship up and when they try polyamory for the first time. And I think if people could think back on, on what they thought when they actually entered in their first monogamous relationship, they would find that they were probably just as afraid.

But the difference is that with monogamy, you have these cultural scripts. You have everything in society telling you like, “this is how you do this relationship. You know, first you go out some dates, and then you, you know, become an item because you become exclusive”. It has all these milestones. There’s a thing called the relationship escalator that’s worth looking up. It has all these milestones that allow you to feel comfort, and security. And you don’t really have that with polyamory, because it’s not, you know, it’s not considered normal in society, or people don’t really talk about it.

So you don’t really have these norms. And sometimes you kind of have to create those norms. So you’re going to be terrified and you’re going to be scared, you’re gonna be worried about losing, you know, one another. You may not be as worried as she was, but you’re both going to be scared. You’re both going to be anxious. That’s very, very normal. And maybe if she kind of thinks about these fears— it’s less about trying to get her to agree to be polyamorous and more about thinking, you know, how can we address these fears? Because when you mentioned— you mentioned that she wanted to try to be a triad and then later decide to look for your own partners, which is good. I think that out of fear, a lot of couples initially think that a triad is safer. And so they go for that, but actually, you know, finding one person to love you, in general is hard enough.

Like expecting a third person to come in and love you both in a way that isn’t threatening is impossible. Like it’s just a very tricky situation. And people always think that it’s somehow an ideal situation because they think it’s the situation which is less likely to end in jealousy. But let me tell you, I had somebody I knew who was in a triad relationship, and she was dumped by both of her  partners on the same day and ever since then, I’ve never really felt that triads were very safe. For me, I’d never had that illusion.

It’s seems like a nice thing. Like, obviously, it’s nice if everybody likes each other. And, yeah, it’s nice if you both have— if you all have the same amount of love for each other, but I think people don’t choose that, because they’re trying to create a certain lifestyle, I think mostly they choose it out of fear. And so I do think that your wife has been making some decisions out of fear. And she’s the one who brought up the topic.

So I don’t think— you know, as long as you approach the situation, and you say, “I’d like to discuss with you the fears that you had”, and you know, what you might be able to find in your area, or maybe even via Skype, a polyamory friendly therapist who can sit down and have these discussions. And then you know, because there’s all sorts of other things to think about. You may both want to try polyamory, but maybe you both have a very, very different idea of how you want to structure your life and relationships. You know, lots of people are you know, have a basic interest in being polyamorous, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have the same type of goals in terms of what kinds of relationships that they want. So, you know, that’s not even necessarily half the battle.

It’s important for you to think about things like that. But I think just starting off, you know, just approach the subject in a way that’s like, you know, “I know that you express the fears. I’m not trying to say we have to do this. But I’d like to talk about those fears, and introduce these ideas”. I’ve written a few columns about the fear of being replaced, which you can find, if you’d like, and just see what she thinks, you know, it doesn’t have to be an either or situation.

Later on down the line. If you really feel like this is really, really part of you. And you can’t, you know, you can’t say no to it, and you can’t pretend all your life that you’re fine not doing it, and you desperately desperately want to do it, then you’re going to have to really think about the situation unfortunately, But that happens. And it’s not necessarily polyamory’s fault. Sometimes people just have different priorities and different things that they want to try. And I think you know, you only live once. And if this is something that you really, really want to try, then you should go for it.

I think, in the meantime, you know, I don’t think you should go full tilt right now. But you can have some discussions about her fears, and see if that changes her mind. And you know, find a polyamory friendly therapist, if you have the opportunity. Maybe that person can also like talk about— find a good way to bring up this subject. And, and you can talk about it, and you can work out what you want out of polyamory and what she wants, and maybe she’ll be less afraid. But yeah, I hope that helps and good luck.

Do you have a question?

If you have a non-monogamous relationships question to ask, please email it to nonmonogamyhelp@gmail.com. Your question will be posted anonymously.

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Episode 30: How to Not Care

If you’ve replaced your partner’s primary, how do you stop caring that you’ll be replaced too?

That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help.

Discussion Topic: What was the first thing you bought with your own money?

Listen below or on Libsyn. You can also find the podcast on Spotify, Apple, and other providers. Or, conversely, use our RSS feed.

Episode 30 – How to Not Care

If you’ve replaced your partner’s primary, how do you stop caring that you’ll be replaced too? That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help. Find the full audio transcription of this episode on Patreon. Discussion Topic – What was the first thing you bought with your own money?

 

Thank you to Chris Albery-Jones at albery-jones.com for the theme music and a big thanks for the podcast art to Dom Duong at domduong.com.

Podcast transcript

Letter:

My husband and I have been married for almost 20 years, when we met I was his secondary and through a series of events I eventually became the only. I expressed once we were a couple that I would prefer being monogamous, but he said we’d start with me only dating to give me confidence in the relationship because it made him happy to know I was with others and he was born poly[am] and afraid he’d be unable to be satisfied in a monogamous relationship.

I hesitantly agreed with this, though it wasn’t really an issue since we decided to just focus on our relationship and to have children.

After a couple years we dipped our toes back into things with my being the only one to date as I was afraid of him being with others due to the fact in every relationship but this one I have always been told I wasn’t good enough and they always choose someone else.

We had gotten close to my being comfortable with him dating, then he broke all of our existing agreements. At this point he stopped everything while I continued to date.

After a series of not good experiences, he begrudgingly said we’d just be mono, even though it made him seriously unhappy; so I sucked it up and kept on exploring with others, to his delight.

Years have passed and I thought I would be good with him trying to see someone else, however he has now started to communicate with a woman and while I’m doing everything I know to do, my internal dialogue won’t shut up and I feel physically ill when he mentions conversations they’ve had and potentially getting together. (We talk about this frequently, so he knows how I feel).

Based on this, he has told her right now he can only offer friendship but she has made it clearly known she wants more. Would a triad work to make things ok for me? And while she is not flat out insulting, has made little comments about how what I’m doing is unfair and it’s hypocritical to date if he’s not allowed to, etc.

He has been awesome with explaining that fair isn’t a factor and I am the most important thing, and my comfort comes first, but she continues to bring similar things up as they continue talking.

How can I get beyond this?  He has said that he’s no angel and can’t promise if things aligned, he wouldn’t do more than is allowed, but he’ll try not to, which to be honest isn’t helping to reassure me.  Especially with her making it clearly known she wants to be intimate with him.

I just want to not care, but I’m so very afraid he’ll like her better and leave me because she’s new and exciting.  Everyone else always has, so him telling me he’d never do that is too easy to ignore and chalk it up to the fact he’s only saying it because it’ll make me more inclined to let him go.

This is truly eating me up inside, can you help me move beyond it??

Response:

There are a few things going on here that I want to point out. The first thing is… you say in the beginning of your letter that it hasn’t always happened— this is clearly a case where someone picked to you.

The good thing about that is that it’s an exception to this series of really difficult situations that you’ve had. But the bad thing about this is that it gives you a really clear example where the sort of main position of primary in this case— you can be replaced. You know that— it will make you more scared because it’s just proof that this primary position can be you know, someone else can take it. You’ve taken the place of someone else. So it’s fair enough in your mind for you to assume that your place can equally be taken.

So all of this kind of reassuring that you’re the most important thing yada, yada, yada— Your brain is not going to be able to help but go “Yeah, but wasn’t this other primary, when I was a secondary, the most important thing?” I mean, you don’t explain the events that led to that decision being made. Maybe there were a lot of extraneous circumstances, but it does paint a picture in your mind that this can happen. So that is naturally going to make you more afraid.

I think she’s right in saying it’s kind of unfair, because it technically is. But, you know, this is an agreement that you all have decided to do. And I appreciate the fact that he is communicating to her that this is his priority. And she can kind of take that or leave it. Whether or not she considers it fair is kind of irrelevant. It’s both of your decisions, the decisions that you’re making, and also kind of decision she has to make whether or not she wants to engage with your husband, knowing that there is this hierarchy present.

I would completely understand if she didn’t want to. Because, you know, basically everything is going to be decided based on your moods and your husband’s moods, rather than some type of fair, you know, equal resolution. However, this is kind of the biggest problem that you’re having in your relationship throughout this entire practice of what you’ve been doing.

You’ve done what a lot of polyamorous people do when they try to be polyamorous for the first time. They’re not really prepared for all the negative emotions and negative feelings that they feel. And a lot of polyamorous people or people trying to open their relationships, assume that feeling all these negative things means something is wrong, and they need to stop everything. And unfortunately, there isn’t a lot— and from what I gather, maybe things have changed now— but there isn’t a lot of introductory polyamory resources that really prepare people for the reality that they will have very negative feelings regardless.

And so what you’ve been trying to do is avoid those feelings. Now, you know, I don’t know if you have anxiety, but I have anxiety and one thing that I’ve learned from having anxiety is that the more I give in to anxiety, the more it will take. The more I try to compromise with it, the more anxious I’m going to feel. Even though it seems logical in the moment to go “Ah, okay, when I eat this one type of food, I start to have a panic attack. I’m just not going to eat this food anymore”. And that seems to solve the problem temporarily. But eventually, I can’t eat this food, I can’t eat that food, I can’t eat that. And the anxiety just grows and grows and grows until I can’t eat anything else or something similar.

Likewise, you’ve kind of started out with a base incompatibility you would prefer to be monogamous. Your husband doesn’t want to be. So you have to compromise. And you’ve tried to compromise in a way that is unfair to try and avoid you feeling bad. But unfortunately, especially because you more or less want monogamy, there is no way to avoid you feeling bad. So what you’ve done throughout this entire thing is, you know, he’s also not really helped by violating existing agreements, although I don’t really know what those agreements were. And whether or not they were realistic in terms of, you know, a lot of people when they open their relationship up they go, “I’m never going to fall in love with anybody but you. It’ll just be sex with other people, but it will be just love with you”, And you can’t really control any of that kind of thing.

So either way by violating or breaking those agreements that just further slips you into that anxiety. You’re trying to avoid having those feelings. And unfortunately, by avoiding avoiding avoiding, you’re getting to the point where you can no longer avoid it because he is interested in someone else. He does want polyamory. This is the choice he wants to make. And there isn’t going to be a way that you can get around having those feelings. You’re going to have those feelings.

I think what’s important is learning how to cope with those feelings, and learning how to address them. But what’s really, really not helping you overall in learning how to cope with these feelings is— why do you know so much about what this woman thinks? Like she’s welcome to her own opinion. She can think whatever the hell it is that she wants. Ultimately, it’s down to what your husband does with that information and how your husband chooses to behave. And I’m going to go into a little bit why, you know, this fear of being replaced is you know, something you can address but ultimately you have to trust him.

And I really don’t understand why you know so much about what she thinks and what she’s saying to him. Because, you know, unless she’s saying this to you, it’s kind of A.) no offense, not really any of your business and B.) your husband can’t think that telling you this is helping. It’s not helping. And there’s no reason for you to know any of this information. She can have all the feelings she wants. Maybe she’s a secret, what they call a cowgirl or somebody who’s who’s literally trying to replace anyone, but it takes two to tango, you know. She can’t force your husband to replace you with her. He has to make that decision. So you have to trust him.

And it doesn’t really help to hear all of this extraneous information about she thinks this is unfair. Who cares what she thinks? It’s irrelevant to your relationship with your husband, what she thinks. He needs to figure out how to deal with her feelings and how to deal with that without putting that burden on you because it just puts you in a really shitty position and in a position that you don’t need to be in.

So first things first, stop that with that— whosever idea is to talk about everything. Because this is another thing that people do when a opening their relationships, They’re so afraid of cheating, that they think they need to communicate every single thing to their partner. And it just ends up making the other person feel like crap, that— you don’t really need that. You need to trust one another. You need to trust him. And you don’t need to know every little thing about what they’re doing together. You just don’t need to know that.

If you’ve made an agreement that he’s not allowed to be physical with her, then that— you need to respect that he has done that and honoured that agreement without having to hear an itinerary of their day. You don’t need to know any of that. So put a stop to that because that isn’t going to help you. That’s just going to make things worse, and it’s only going to stir up anxiety. It just doesn’t need to happen. Okay, you can be cordial with one another. If you must, you don’t even— I don’t really meet my metamours at all.

Like I don’t, you know— some people have that whole like “kitchen table polyamory” ideal. It’s, you know, it’s not my thing. I don’t need it. I don’t need to be best friends, besties you know, and I’ve been in situations where I’ve forced myself to be best friends with my metamours and It’s only made me miserable. So you don’t need this information. And if— it doesn’t have to be a don’t ask, don’t tell situation. That’s not what you’re asking for. You’re asking for, “I don’t need to know what she says about this”.

You don’t need to know. You don’t, and if she’s saying this type of stuff in front of you, then you can put down a boundary and say, “Whatever feelings you have about our relationship, you can communicate those to my husband, to your therapist, or to somebody else. And it’s not me, because I don’t need to know this. This is the agreement we have. If you don’t like that agreement, you can walk away. Because this is the setup we have right now. Things may change in the future, but they certainly aren’t going to be changed by criticism”. So that needs to stop. First and foremost.

Second thing is that you really have to face your fear. You are avoiding your fear. You’re afraid that he’s going to replace you. And I found that was really, really helpful in trying to conquer this fear is recognising that ultimately, I cannot control whether or not somebody is in love with me or not. I cannot control whether or not someone chooses to stay with me or not. I cannot control any of that. And even though that seems terrifying because your brain is going, “Yes, you can control it. You need to be extra nice or do this or do that”, you know, I can’t control it. And it takes a lot of the weight and a lot of the anxiety off of my shoulders.

If you could control someone replacing you with someone else, then you would not have had those experiences that you had. You can’t control that. And likewise, because you can’t control that it is not your fault. And I think that is something that you really, really need to acknowledge because there might be some part of you that is blaming yourself. (Apologies for the background noise)— that is blaming yourself for this. But you need to realise that all of these situations that have happened to you are not your fault.

You cannot control if someone decides to walk away from you. There isn’t any combination of special rules that you can put in place of— there’s nothing you can do. You know, it happens to monogamous people all the time, even if he were to say, “you know what, Honey, I’m done with this polyamory thing, I’m going to dump her, or we’re going to be monogamous, and I’m happy to be monogamous”. He could do that. And he could still replace you down the line. Being monogamous doesn’t change that,

If somebody is going to replace somebody, then it’s going to happen and think to yourself— if he is the type of person, you know, how long have you been with this person? You’ve been married for 20 years. If he is the kind of person that is just going to take you and kick you out for something new and shiny, is that the kind of person you really want to be with? At the end of the day? No, you don’t want to be with that kind of person. So what really helps me when I’m thinking that, “oh, I need to do this. I need to be the perfect partner so that I’m not replaced” — is to replace that and face my fear and realise I do not have control over that.

And when you realise that you don’t have control over that. When you release that responsibility from your shoulders, a lot of this anxiety is going to become more tolerable. I won’t say it’s going to go away. As my anxiety certainly certainly doesn’t go away. But it definitely becomes more tolerable. Because the only relationship that I have control over is the relationship I have with myself. And likewise, the only relationship you really have complete control over is the relationship you have with yourself. So you need to stop this delaying the inevitable.

And I would really advise that you stop all these rules. Stop you’re only dating people— If you don’t want to date people don’t date people. There are people who have situations where their partner is polyamorous and they’re monogamous, and things work out fine. That can work out. If you don’t want to date people, don’t date people just because he gets his kicks out of it. So what? What about you? So, realise that that relationship with yourself is important.

Allow him to date whomst he would like to date. It’s probably grammatically incorrect but let him proceed. You have to build this trust with one another and it’s scary. It’s going to be scary. You feeling all this anxiety and fear that he’s going to leave you? Yes, part of that is you fearing something you can’t control. But part of that is just you doing something new. Every time you do something new, you’re going to be afraid. You’re going to be nervous. You don’t know what’s going to happen. This is a new thing you’ve been replaced before. You’re the person that’s replaced somebody else. So of course, you’re afraid you’re going to be replaced.

But what you have to do is sometimes just sit with the anxiety and go through it and wake up the next morning, realise you’re not dead. You survived it, he’s still around, he’s still by your side. And that’s it. And eventually, over time, it will get better. But you have to kind of go through it. You can’t— you have been avoiding this fear for so long that it’s built up, built up and built up and you’ve given it more power in a way by avoiding it. And you need to face it and just accept the fact that if he’s going to leave you for this person, you cannot control that. It is not your fault. And there isn’t any magical combination of rules you can put in place that’s going to prevent that from happening.

You just have to let him do what he would like to do. Now you have— you know, you can work out physical agreements about like, okay, it’s important for you to spend time with me. Like it’s not like it’s, you know, he can do whatever the hell he wants and just ignore you and pretend you don’t exist. That’s not what I’m saying. You work out physical agreements, figure out what it is that you need from him. And you know, you may come to the conclusion, after he goes out with this person that you really want monogamy and you don’t want to have to do this.

Ultimately, when you choose polyamory— choosing polyamory is about— Basically, you have to be okay with the fact that the person or persons that you’re seeing will not spend 100% of their time focused on you. Now, the thing I mentioned in the podcast and the column quite frequently is that monogamous people can make this agreement too. If you if you marry someone who has a time intensive career, or a time intensive hobby, where you know they are a lawyer, they’re doctor— there’s something where they can’t spend 100% of their time, you can also make that sacrifice.

And you could also make that decision. So it’s not just polyamory. But ultimately, if you want to do polyamory you are kind of agreeing to a situation where any partner that you have can’t devote 100% of their resources to you. And for some people, that’s just not a decision they want. Just like some people don’t want to date someone who has it has a time intensive career, and that’s legit. That’s fine. That’s valid. You may through this experience of actually pushing yourself through it, realise that this isn’t actually what you want.

And unfortunately, that might be the case and you’re going to have to figure out what you know to do after that, but you’re never going to be able to figure that out if you don’t go through it. If you don’t, at least try it and you haven’t really tried it, you’ve been avoiding it, and you just have to keep you know— you just have to try it actually to know if it’s not fully for you.

And I wouldn’t necessarily see you know, horrible anxiety as a sign that it’s not for you. Because let me tell you something, the first couple of nights that my partner spent, without me and out, were horrible. I didn’t get any sleep, it was terrible. So sometimes, that’s just how it is. You just have to build that up, because it’s a new thing. And you also have to remember you don’t have any cultural scripts for this. Monogamy has a lot of cultural scripts. People know what to expect. And and we don’t really know what to expect, this is a kind of a new thing culturally.

So you’re going to be afraid, and that’s okay. But, you know, try it a few times. Let him go on a few dates. Really— you know, you’ll wake up the next morning, he’s going to be there for you. If you find that he is wrapped in new relationship energy and forgets that you exist, then you kind of have to reassert that in terms of your foundational relationship, because that can happen. But ultimately, you’re never going to be able to know if this is for you or not if you don’t actually try it and you’ve been avoiding it.

Yeah, I also would advise if you have access to it— finding a polyamory friendly couples therapist, and maybe a therapist for yourself just to be able to have someone to talk to about this kind of stuff. And your partner may need a therapist if he’s using you as his therapist, because you really shouldn’t need to know all this information about what’s going on with them. I realise that some people get anxious about cheating. And they think that confessing to their partner is always the best case.

But really, there needs to be some privacy in between relationships. And there just is no reason for you to know all this information. Just absolutely no reason. It’s just going to drive you further— absolutely nuts. Just no reason.

Sorry, I shouldn’t say nuts— it’s going to worsen your anxiety significantly. So don’t do it.

So yeah, to sum up, I think that you need to remember that the fact that you are the person that he picked over a previous primary partner gives you a very good reason to be afraid that you may also be replaced. I think you need to remember that she is right, to be fair, and that this isn’t a fair setup. But this is both of your decisions and your husband is from what I hear doing a good job of saying, “Well, this is the situation”. But you also don’t need to know all this information. And wherever that’s coming from, whether it’s your husband telling you, whether it’s her telling you— that needs to stop, you need to put some boundaries up there.

You are delaying the inevitable in terms of avoiding actually having him date other people, because you’re afraid of your feelings. And it’s only making those feelings even more heightened. It’s only stirring things up more. Avoiding things that makes you make you anxious, will only inevitably give that anxiety, more power. So you need to allow him to proceed. Embrace the fact that it may happen. You may be replaced, but you also need to remember that there is nothing that you can do to prevent yourself from being replaced if someone decides to do that.

And if someone decides to replace you, that probably isn’t someone you want to spend the rest of your life with anyway. So learn to cope with that anxiety, realise there is absolutely nothing you can do to control it and free yourself from that responsibility. And hopefully that will help your anxiety get a bit more manageable, but you will feel anxious. You will feel scared.

Maybe the first night he spends with this person, you’re gonna be an absolute wreck. Try and you know, schedule a date with your friend. Distract yourself to the max if you can, but you will feel shitty. You just will I just—  I guarantee you’ll feel shitty. I will be surprised if you don’t, because that’s just part of it. And it doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with you. It’s just part and parcel of the polyam deal. So yeah, I really hope this helps and good luck.

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Is it better to hide your feelings?

One day, after being monogamous married for 7 years, I found out my husband was in love with his coworker. It felt like cheating to me but he said that he discovered that he was polyamorist his whole life but never act on it before. I accept his new conditions.

We went through many painful conversations and therapy, because communication is the key of successful relationships. I offer my sincere friendship to his girlfriend, but she stopped pretending being my friend when their relationship didn’t work anymore.

We tried swinging in a club once, but my husband didn’t enjoy it as much as I did because for him it is all about emotional connection, and still resentful that I keep in touch for a few months by phone with the guy five year ago. I am free to date too, in theory.

I wanted to explore with women by myself but my husband felt left out, so I decided to not do it. We have threesomes with two of his girlfriends. I really enjoy it. I have been open and supporting of him exploring polyamory. Went to several poly[am] meet up and even hosted one.

He always said that his only interest was the emotional connection. However, after Lidia, Brooklyn, Lana, Gina, Laura, Erin, another Erin, and Diana…he progress from just touching and kissing to sex encounters and texting.

Now, he is dating a girl for only a couple of weeks and felt strongly emotional and physical invested. They went out three days in a row after they meet for the first time this week because their connection is very strong. This is going to fast for me, and for the first time I wasn’t supportive. I let him know that I feel insecure, that I believe she will replace me in his heart. He keeps asking me if it is okay with me if he sees her again.

I told him to follow his heart and to not stop because of me, that I will never veto anyone, I don’t want to carry on the weight of any resentment . He thinks that he is screwed if he dates and screwed if not. I am afraid that this is the beginning of the end of our marriage, even when he keeps telling me that he loves me. I can’t sleep, I can’t concentrate at work, my anxiety levels are very high. I am trying to keep calm, being honest and advocating for myself. Sometimes I think that I should just close my mouth and bite the bullet. What should I do?

There a lot of things going on here so I’ll try and break it down to the key issues.

  • Clear boundaries and definitions
  • Emotional connection vs sexual relationships
  • Hiding your emotions

Clear boundaries and definitions

The first issue with your relationship is that, from the start, you’ve not had some really good boundaries or definitions in what you want to do. The biggest and first definition that people have to decide when they open their relationship is what they get out of polyamory, if this is what they choose.

He might have a very good idea of what he gets out of polyamory, but you don’t seem to have ever really defined what you get out of it. You agreed to it because he kind of cheated and you didn’t want to break up and that is going to be a major source of anxiety throughout.

That is why every single one of your decisions has been navigated by your husband’s emotions. Right now you’re trying to tell him that you refuse to veto relationships he has, and yet you’ve self-vetoed based on his emotions in the past. You enjoyed swinging, but he didn’t.

He’s resentful that you keep in touch with a guy and that’s bothering you enough to mention. You want to explore dating women on your own, but you don’t because your husband feels left out. A lot of your decisions have been based off of either him explicitly telling you not to do these things or you not being able to handle his discomfort.

And I don’t blame you. This is one of the biggest obstacles people face in polyamory and many people struggle with fully actualising their desires and actions and allow their partner’s discomfort to hold them back because they’re afraid of losing them — but it just ends up in a never ending game of chicken that helps nobody. If you had a strong reason to be polyamorous yourself, you wouldn’t be tethered to the whims of your partner. If you are not only free to date who you want but you also are *interested* in this lifestyle, then you need to accept that he has agreed to it.

And while you can be sympathetic and understanding to him having feelings about you dating others, which many people do have those feelings, that doesn’t mean those feelings get to dictate your actions. If your discomfort at the speed of his current relationship should dictate to him how to proceed then why are you letting his discomfort dictate your life?

It’s not surprising he might be confused. You’ve essentially agreed to polyamory because he wanted it and you’ve changed your behaviour based off his before, so what’s to say it’s different now? What will help in that regard is a little self exploration. Is polyamory what you want to do? If so, then you need to both agree that you will support each other in the feelings you may have about dating others, but you will not allow someone else’s discomfort dictate what paths you choose. You should be allowed to swing, date women, etc. do what you’d like even if he feels “left out”. These are your relationships. He’s not necessarily invited to those and he shouldn’t be.

Emotional connection vs. sexual relationships

A lot of people heavily contrast polyamory with swinging because they say that polyamory is about relationships whereas swinging is about sex. I feel sometimes like the way people define what a relationship and emotional connection is is very individual.

For me, it takes me awhile to feel a strong emotional connection to someone. It doesn’t just happen overnight. And that emotional connection to me carries with it a lot of things I want to pursue. Whereas someone else may find it easy to emotionally connect with people and that doesn’t mean they need to be in a relationship.

You’re confused here because your partner has said that it’s all about “emotional connection” but you’re confused as to what this means with regards to sex. You list off the partners that he’s had and how he’s progressed with them and for you it may seem like he’s not had an emotional connection with them as much, but ultimately it’s not really up to you to define that. It could be that he says that but it doesn’t matter as much as he claims it does — either way, it’s not really your concern.

A lot of people new to polyamory make the mistake of holding their partner’s dating habits under a microscope. They don’t mean to be nitpicky, but they don’t have any relationship models to base polyamory from and many people are searching for something to grab ahold of. Because many polyamorous relationships don’t operate the same way a monogamous relationship would in that there are milestones that indicate when a relationship is more ‘serious’, you can often find yourself in polyamory trying to pinpoint those milestones in your partner’s relationships so you know where you stand. This is done out of fear and that’s understandable but when two people have very different definitions of relationships and the way sex or physical contact interplay in them, it can be a masterclass in misread signals and miscommunication.

That’s why this is so scary for you. You’ve witnessed your partner do relationships. He’s said that it’s about “emotional connection” and you’re trying to gauge that against his behaviour. Now he’s dating someone who he seems to have a stronger pull for in that he’s physically spending more time with her and this seems to be “fast” for you because you’re trying to find stability by comparing it to his other relationships and it’s scaring you. All of that is understandable.

But at the end of the day, examining your partner’s behaviours like this will only appease your anxiety for so long and in the end, it may actually cause more anxiety than it’s worth. What you should focus on are your needs in this relationship. Things can and will change in polyamory and that is something that you have to adjust to, but as long as you’re getting the things that you need out of your relationship, that’s what you need to be concerned with. So is him going out for three days in a row, if that has stopped him from seeing you, a problem?

A change is going to shake you because you’re not sure how to cope with it. But what can anchor you here is not only what you personally get out of polyamory but accepting that change is likely to happen and also knowing what you need. If you had more of an explicit discussion about definitions and boundaries with your partner, other than a vague idea that he needs “emotional connection”, whatever that means, you would have a better idea of what the change is going to look like.

In that regard, you both need to think about and talk with each other about what your ideal relationship structure looks like. When you have a strong idea of what you want out of polyamory and he has an idea and you come together and you decide what you want from each other and what other relationships will look like when you do have them, you will feel more confident in your choices. I’m not saying you won’t be anxious, but you likely won’t be anywhere near as anxious as you are now.

So, for example, let’s say your ideal scenario is one live-in partner whom you spend the majority of the time with and maybe two or three other partners. Maybe he wants the same or maybe his ideal situation is two live-in partners. Neither of you can control if you find other partners but you can decide, are you okay with having another live-in partner?

If he wants to be with you and be your live-in partner and you likewise, maybe you either have to be okay with another live-in partner or he has to be okay giving up on that. And maybe the compromise is that he spends alternate weeks with the other partner. Or he has 2–3 date nights a week, etc. You don’t always have to define it so rigidly, but having a good idea of what you both are trying to get out of this will make it a lot less scary when changes happen.

Work out that and speak together about what it is you both want out of this. You both need to stop allowing the fear of losing each other controlling your actions and you have to form a better understanding of the role that polyamory plays in your relationship and in your life.

Hiding your emotions

Last but certainly not least, I want to address the last bit of your letter which is another thing I think many, many people do in polyamory — not communicating or hiding their emotions and pretending to be okay when they aren’t. Sometimes we do this without even thinking. This is why I continuously and explicitly tell people who are opening their relationship never to put their partner in the position to give permission for them to go out on dates. At the end of the day, if you both agree to being polyamorous, that is all the permission you need.

When you create a situation where one partner has to give permission, it puts an enormous amount of stress on both parties. One is worried their partner will say no and the other is worried about what happens if they say yes. It sounds like a contract that one signs and cannot go back on. You are ultimately agreeing to be “okay” which usually means being silent. Giving permission tends to mean that you feel like you cannot say anything later down the line once it’s been given. And that is an absolutely horrible thing to feel.

I can understand why people do this. Your partner here wants to be sure you’re okay and wants to make sure the actions he takes aren’t against any agreements. He doesn’t want to do something knowingly that would cause you to break up with him. But there is a difference between violating a basic agreement and doing something that may cause your partner stress. No one wants to willingly cause stress to someone that they love, but all relationships come with stress.

We envision an added stress on polyamory because we are going against the basic treaty of what we we’re told relationships should have — exclusivity. But let’s be real, you can go through a monogamous relationship and never cheat and follow all of the agreements and still end up in a situation where your partner and you split up. Even if it seems more dangerous to date other people, there are ultimately no guarantees in any relationship.

And you should know this and this might be why you’re so stressed. You were monogamous for seven years and then this sudden change slapped you in the face. But what you should take from that is that being monogamous will not save you from sudden changes. You kept your mouth shut for seven years — did it stop your partner from having feelings for someone else? No. So why would that change now?

Do not hide your feelings for the sake of thinking something will go over smoothly. Do not ‘bite the bullet’ because you’re afraid to be afraid. Fear is very normal throughout life and there will always be a risk. The way we cope with it is by acknowledging it, talking about it and supporting each other in it. Many people assume that polyamory will always be happy and perfect and so when they encounter such difficult feelings, they think the solution is to keep it to themselves and “deal with it” on their own. But that’s not going to help you. You’re allowed to have feelings. And finding a safe and clear way to express them with your partner and have them acknowledged is important.

Sometimes there isn’t a way to get out of feeling anxiety that your partner will leave you. Sometimes you just have to experience it, see that they are still there, and know you survived it. But it’s much more difficult to do that if you’re denying it to yourself. Recognise and see your feelings. Validate them but don’t let them dictate your partner or your behaviours. Work with another polyamory friendly therapist on this if you need to. But avoid the temptation to suck it up because that will not help you in the long run.

To summarise, you both need to figure out what it is out of polyamory that you want, what you want your relationship to look like, make an agreement, don’t let one another’s fears dictate your behaviours but be willing to witness and support one another in how you feel without pretending you’re okay when you’re not.

I hope this helps and good luck!

Do you have a question?

If you have a non-monogamous relationships question to ask, please email it to nonmonogamyhelp@gmail.com. Your question will be posted anonymously.

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Possessiveness and polyamory

It feels like I’m at the end of my rope right now. I don’t know what to do and all the articles and books I read and mental health experts I speak to don’t seem to help. Hence, I humbly submit the following to you.

I find myself in an open relationship with my wife whom I love very much. She’s been seeing a coworker from work for sex when I’m not around. This kills me. But more on this in a minute.

When we initially began the relationship, my wife was seeing a number of men…in addition to me. I was very possessive. I have since then read many books such as Ethical Slut, Sex at Dawn, Opening Up and more about non-monogamy but at the time I was still sorting out the Standard Model.

We set some ground rules about where we could have sex with others and about not hurting each other. These rules included restrictions on how our home could be used and rules around not hurting one another or our relationship.

In the beginning, I took it all very hard. I was very possessive. I tried to comfort my wife when she came to me with “Why doesn’t [other partner] love me?” I gave her advice. I supported her. But above all, I tried to make her mine.

More recently, when she got the hots for her coworker (closer to her age), I tried everything I could. First, I said “don’t tell me”; then, I said “tell me”; then, “don’t tell me” again. Then, I sought advice from all possible quarters including new books I mentioned before. Now, I’ve renounced my old ways. I no longer attempt to possess my wife.

In fact, I’ve made her life less difficult by agreeing to let her use the spare bedroom while I’m not there. The remaining stipulation were unchanged. She accepted. I love her very much. She loves me very much too. The conversations and debates we’ve had were nothing short of enlightening.

So what’s the problem? Here I am, on a business trip. I know my wife intends to seduce her coworker. I decided to nudge him too and told him to go for it. And I think he did. And she did. And last night I got barely four hours of sleep because all I could see in my mind’s eye was my wife and her coworker. It’s not even the sex. It’s the tender moments — her nuzzling into his chest, the cuddling, all that other tender stuff.

More variables: My wife says she’s not polyamorous (just non-monogamous), but she’s clearly pined for men she couldn’t have while still loving me. Is she wrong? I think I’m polyamorous (I also happen to be bisexual), because I’ve loved (and been in love with) certain men and women simultaneously, but, as I keep discovering time and again, my mind revolts against me when I try to force it back into online dating, going out, [sex work], etc. (all of which my wife encourages me to do); the emotional part of my mind wants none of it; it wants my wife to be all things for me.

Now, I know this is unfair and impossible. I just really, really, really need help with breaking this cognitive dissonance! I know how I must act, but why is it so hard. Moreover, all the reading I’m doing is suggesting that jealousy is still a normal factor in non-monogamous relationships

Is our relationship doomed? Or should I explain to my wife my needs better? How, even if she’s having a party on Saturday night, she can still send me a message back every once in a while to show me she’s thinking of me and/or cares about me? Or is this still wrong to want from her? Am I not being self-reliant enough? What is going on?

This…”crash course” in the “true nature of things” has certainly been hard, but I’m also quite an apt student. What am I missing? What do I need to be happy? Is there anything I can keep the relationship going without being tortures so terribly, or is it already forfeit?

I’m sorry to hear you’re dealing with all of this emotional turmoil. It sounds really difficult to manage. There are a few things here I want to address.

  • Non-monogamy vs polyamory
  • Rules and their uses
  • Emotional struggles
  • Possessiveness

Non-monogamy vs polyamory

In your letter you’re concerned about whether you or your partner is ‘polyamorous’ or ‘non-monogamous’ and personally, while some people may find this distinction helpful in some regards, I don’t find it particularly helpful for you or your partner in this situation. One of the reasons I deeply advise people against having a rule where they won’t fall in love with anyone but one person is that not only can you not control who you fall in love with so easily but what love is and how one experiences is so individual and subjective that identifying the precise moment and your precise feelings about people in some situations is much harder than it seems.

People can be monogamous and still have the capacity to love multiple people romantically at the same time. Being ‘polyamorous’ isn’t necessarily about having the capacity to love more than one person but being specifically interested in developing romantic relationships with other people vs. others who may only be interested in sexual relationships without romance with others.

Now, I have argued in my piece “Why I don’t identify as poly” that I genuinely feel like someone define “love” in such a different way to me that I often see little distinction between them and swingers, despite them claiming how different they are to swingers. I personally use ‘polyamory’ and ‘non-monogamy’ interchangeably because of all of the reasons explained in my article but more generally, I’m not interested in defining something so individual and subjective.

Regardless, this distinction doesn’t seem like a useful thing for your relationship with your partner. What’s more important is to make clear how polyamory or non-monogamy actually function for you and what that means in real life terms — besides just whether or not your shared living space could be used. She may not know this being younger than you, but it’s worth you both thinking what your ideal set up is.

Do you want a ‘primary’? What does that mean for you? How many nights would you want your partner to be away? This obviously can and may change in the future, but thinking about this right now is a lot more useful than trying to define whether either of you can or will fall in love with someone else. That isn’t something you or her can control — even if you were monogamous.

Rules and their uses

If you’ve read a lot about polyamory, you’ve probably read a lot of people’s disdain for rules and to a certain extent I feel that’s warranted. I find that people often make rules in order to prevent the inevitable or delay it or control things that they can’t control. And several of your rules fall under that category.

It should be a given that no individual within a relationship acts in a way that would hurt someone they care about — but to a certain extent this can’t always be prevented. What’s really missing from this idea is the intent and even if that’s added, it should be a given, so why add it? You don’t have a rule that you won’t punch each other in the face, because that should be a given. The fact that you have rules about not hurting each other or the relationship really highlights to me that there is a fear here that this rule is trying to prevent that it cannot prevent.

A rule will not force a partner who has no consideration for you or the relationship you have to have that consideration. You cannot force someone who doesn’t care about you or the consequences of their actions to care by enforcing a rule. And the nebulousness of rules about hurting one another or a relationship means that you’ll end up trying to define what is and isn’t a danger to ‘the relationship’ based on your own personal subjective criteria which you may not actually share.

And to be honest, it’s also worth you both realising that ‘the relationship’ may be worth sacrificing if you’re incompatible. One should never value a relationship structure so heavily over one’s needs that it’s sacrosanct. Obviously all relationships, especially domestic ones, involve some compromise, but that doesn’t mean that the relationship you have with yourself and the one your partner has with herself isn’t important.

Making rules regarding a shared living space and how it is used is not necessarily ‘bad rule’ or a sign of you being possessive unless you’re making that rule with the full intention of it preventing your partner from being able to date others. You’re well within your rights to not want to have any associations with the people she dates and also well within your rights as an equal person in a shared living space to have an opinion on how that living space is used. That’s not possessiveness. That’s a boundary and that isn’t bad.

Likewise, you’re also welcome to ask your partner not to use you as a therapist for her relationship problems with others or even discuss it with you. I see you push-pulling in wanting to be told the details and then not told and my guess is that your drive to want to be told the details has something to do with thinking that hearing the details will somehow act as exposure therapy and ‘cure’ your jealous feelings — and that’s just not really how things always work. I personally don’t want to know the details. I’m happy to help my partners when they are struggling, but if I feel like they are going to me with what they should be going to a therapist for, then I will absolutely tell them that this is not a discussion I want to be involved in.

If you are struggling with the details, do without them. And most certainly, while you can comfort your partner if she is upset, you don’t need to provide her advice and be her relationship coach. Especially if you have a tendency to use that position to your advantage. It might be worth you taking a good hard look at these ‘rules’ and how they’re serving you. I feel like rules around shared living spaces are so obvious that they’re more about trying to prevent hurt than actually doing anything to help you.

You have to accept that you both may very well, albeit unintentionally, hurt one another. It’s more important that you think about how you’re going to deal with problems than trying to rule them out of existence. And that, in turn, will help you stop worrying so much in the end about how things might change if problems do come up.

Emotional struggles

Frequently, I highlight that people opening up their relationship, especially if they have done a lot of reading on polyamory, will often set themselves up for failure without meaning to. Especially if one feels more oriented towards non-monogamy, there’s an expectation that trying polyamory or opening your relationship will immediately lead to good things. When polyamorous relationships end, people tend to blame the fact that the relationship was open for why it didn’t last.

There is a lot of pressure on polyamorous people to prove the validity of their relationships by demonstrating how long they last or how committed they are in very heterocentric and monogamous-centric terms. So you end up hearing a lot about all the Benefits of polyamory and very little about the downsides because no one wants to add fuel to the fire of people who say non-monogamy is doomed to failure.

Especially people who think they have the most solid intellectual grip on non-monogamy can often find themselves frustrated and confused by their emotions when they actually apply it in practice. Although you might have heard “there’s no right way to do polyamory” there is a “right way” that is implied through the narratives of polyamory people put forth and that’s of a relationship which lasts until the death of someone in it and where no jealousy or negative emotions are ever felt. We never put monogamous relationships up to these unflinchingly high standards. In fact, people are welcome to joke about how marriage represents the end of someone’s fun in their life. So why do we put this on polyamory?

You keep asking what is wrong as if you have the expectation of yourself that you ought to be emotionally completely unaffected or chuffed by your partner seeing other people and think that, by having emotions about it, you’ve somehow ‘failed’.

But there isn’t anything wrong with you. You cannot expect yourself as a person who grew up (unless I’m wrong about that) within a monogamous-centric culture to shed your ideas about what this culture has told you all of your life simply be reading one book of massive assumptions about the way human beings lived in previous generations. One of my favourite quotes is:

“No one has ever devised a method for detaching the scholar from the circumstances of life, from the fact of [their] involvement (conscious or unconscious) with a class, a set of beliefs, a social position, or from the mere activity of being a member of a society.” — Edward Said, “Orientalism”

Every aspect of your identity and your life experience impacts the way you perceive situations and process emotions and that continues to develop and change as you come across new situations and encounter new problems you hadn’t before. You are two months into a marriage with someone you have only known for one year. In many ways, you are still building your foundations and added to the other issues you’ve had in previous relationships, you’re very new to non-monogamy. It makes absolute sense that you have feelings about your partner sleeping with other people. It doesn’t mean anything is wrong with you.

Instead of trying to define yourself as a success or failure based on emotions you can’t exactly turn on and off like a tap, figure out how you’re going to manage these feelings. Think about where they come from and what they’re telling you about what you’re afraid of. A lot of people, when they experience these fears, try to respond by controlling their partner’s behaviour to stop the feelings.

And while that makes sense and may work temporarily, if you want a non-monogamous relationship and that is what your partner wants, it will only delay the inevitable. It sounds like what you need is reassurance and your partner can provide you with that but, as I mentioned before, having a good idea of what you both want out of non-monogamy can also ground you and help you feel less scared of what the future may hold.

Another large mistake people make in non-monogamy is reassuring their partner by saying things like, “I won’t love anyone but you” or “I care more about you than other people”. This is not only incredibly disrespectful to anyone who you’re seeing but is also unrealistic. What helps ground me in my fear of being replaced or abandoned is removing that responsibility off of my shoulders.

My anxiety is always trying to convince me I have control over things that I don’t so I can respond to fear in a way that appears constructive. When I remind myself that I cannot control whether or not my partner loves me and wants to be with me, it take the burden of being the perfect partner off of my shoulders.

Likewise, if you remember that there isn’t anything you can do, even going back to monogamy, to prevent your partner from falling out love with you and in love with someone else, you will stop trying to balance this precarious plate by seeking constant affirmation that your partner wants to be with you. Because likewise, talking the talk is not walking the walk. I’m pretty sure many people out there have been cheated on by someone who could reassure them with the prettiest of words.

This isn’t about being ‘self-reliant’. Because another big problem with polyamory advice that I find is that it labels every negative emotion as ‘jealousy’ and adds that ‘jealousy’ is one’s own responsibility to manage — as if it’s some type of possessing demon independent of the lives and actions of others that one has to exorcise oneself. We’re social creatures, as much as that pains the loner in me to want to admit.

And people do have an impact on our emotions and feelings. It’s important that we are self-assured, rather than self-reliant and that we take responsibility for our own feelings rather than expecting other people to take responsibility for them. So it’s less about you just sucking it up and ‘dealing’ with your emotions and more about you coming to your partner knowing you have these feelings and working with her on ways you both can agree she can help you.

Things are harder when you expect them to be easy and you will not be able to address and cope with your feelings if you are too busy beating yourself up for having them in the first place. But, I think you particularly need to be wary about how your needs may be partially some of that possessiveness you mention.

Possessiveness

My intention in saying this is not to undermine your ability to understand yourself, but you claim that you have renounced your “old ways” all thanks to a single book you’ve read. While I don’t have any doubt that what you’ve read on non-monogamy has impacted you, I think you’re expecting your emotions and reactions to follow through with your logic.

One of my recent favourite books I’ve read is Happy Fat by Sofie Hagen which is all about fatphobia and the ways it can impact you. I learned a lot from it and it helped me immensely, but I cannot say, even after having read that book, that I have renounced my internalised fatphobia and I no longer attempt to judge people based on their fatness — that would be ridiculous. Because fatphobia is part of the society I live in and I’ve breathed and swum in it like a toxic river. As much as I logically may understand what is fatphobic, that cannot undo years and years of fatphobic conditioning via society and reinforcement from the people around me.

Likewise, with all due respect, you cannot just undo possessiveness by reading a single book, even if you logically understand why it isn’t a good thing for you to be. As I’m sure you can see, you still have a desire for your partner to be ‘all things’ for you. Now, one can be both possessive and inclined toward monogamy. It could be that these feelings are partly a sign of you being possessive but also partly an indication of you not wanting non-monogamy. I think it’s worth trying to manage your emotions in the ways I’ve previously pointed out before throwing in the towel. But what is equally as important is accepting that the path of learning and progress are not linear paths.

You want this answer to your problems and describe yourself as a ‘student’ as if going through life is as simple as taking an exam and getting a grade. Another big mistake people make when they’re opening their relationship is waiting to open it for a “good time”, assuming that they will reach some sort of peak mental health condition that will be ‘ideal’ for them to try something new. But that peak or perfect condition is a mirage. Because that’s not how life works. You could be in the best, most confident condition you’ve ever been in your life, open your relationship, and then the next day all of your immediate family dies in some horrible accident and that’s it for your ‘peak’ condition.

If you have a tendency towards possessiveness, then it’s going to take more than just a book to undo this. And rather than trying to purge yourself of this, it’s important to recognise it and work on addressing it and finding new coping strategies, rather than telling yourself how illogical it is and then leaving it at that. It would be helpful for you to do this work with a polyamory friendly therapist who can help you identify signs of possessiveness and working against that.

I highlighted before that your first rule wasn’t inherently possessive but mentioned that if you created it with the intention on it being such an obstacle for your partner that they wouldn’t be able to pursue other relationships, then it was an issue. You don’t say whether that was your motivation but consider this when you’re asking things of your partner. Are you, by asking her to send messages to you when she’s out, trying to use a need for reassurance as a cover for your possessiveness?

Are you trying to create such an obstacle for her in your actions that you make going out an impossible or stressful task for her? While I am not saying you are abusive, quite a lot of times abusive people can isolate their partners by their actions and responses to things. Rather than saying outright that their partner can’t go see friends, they will create so much drama when they do go out, they end up deciding not to for fear of instigating that reaction.

Far more than the books you mentioned, I recommend you read Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft which is all about abusive and controlling people. Again, I’m not saying that you are abusive, but you might find it useful to examine what manipulative behaviour can be and identify the aspects of yourself which lean towards possessiveness and control and figure out how to counteract that other than just outwitting it. That’s also worth working through with a therapist.

In summary

To summarise, the distinction here between non-monogamy and polyamory isn’t as important as it sounds and you need to examine what your rules are for and how they are or aren’t serving you both. You need to stop setting unrealistic expectations for your emotional responses and start being real with yourself about your needs and your behaviours.

I hope this helps and good luck!

Do you have a question?

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Managing trauma and polyamory

I’m a 33 year old man with significant relationship trauma and abandonment issues. My partner of six years has, until recently, only had two partners; I was the only partner of the two she maintained a sexual relationship with, in what used to be a Dom/sub dynamic. She doesn’t, however, share a bed with me.

Shortly after we all moved in together she expressed a desire to be with someone else, looking for a heavy top to fulfill her masochistic needs. Her job places several people under her care and that gives her little energy to see to me as her submissive. She stays over at their place out of town roughly half the time, and still never with me.

I’m dealing the best I’m able, but I have a paralyzing fear of being abandoned because of where she’s at currently, what that means for her energy for me, and also because of betrayal and trauma in every major relationship. Since seeing this partner I feel like she has lost a lot of interest in me and that’s digging up a lot of pain. She will sometimes ignore texts that pertain to a pending vasectomy for the purposes of safer fluid bonding and that makes me feel like she doesn’t want that for us anymore.

I feel like she’s running out of patience with my fears and I don’t know how to pull myself out of this tailspin I’m convinced I caused. I’ve begun counseling to deal with my anxieties but I’m afraid she’s pulling away despite my best efforts. I’ve considered asking her about me exploring non-monogamy but I think she wouldn’t go for it.

Is there anything that can be done? Is this just part of cohabitation? I still feel get butterflies when we make eye contact, but that barely happens anymore.

There are two things that immediately strike me when I read your letter.

The first thing is that I’m very confused as to why it is she is allowed to be non-monogamous, but you aren’t? Especially when it’s very clear that she doesn’t have an interest or perhaps the time or energy into meeting all of your needs, and yet she is allowed to pursue other relationships outside of yours but you aren’t? This could be part of your dynamic, but the fact that you feel like you can’t bring this up with her or that she ‘won’t go for it’ is really telling.

Far be it from me to tell people how to operate, but I think regardless of whatever type of dynamic one person has in a relationship, it’s always important for things to feel equal or, at least, if there is an inequity, that that’s discussed and addressed in a way that’s feels open and fair. Throughout your letter, you highlight a lot of inequities in your relationship that I would guess, because of the way you’ve highlighted them, do not feel fair to you.

It feels like you are powerless to actually address these situations. Which, regardless of your dynamic in the relationship, really shouldn’t be the case. I don’t feel like a relationship where you feel like your needs are not being met and asking for them to be met is going to cause more harm than good is a functionally healthy relationship.

I’m also not sure if, given your fear of abandonment, a dynamic where one person has more power over you is something that’s particularly healthy. I’ll address coping with fears later on in this, but I do think part of dealing with fear is having a firm and secure foundation and that comes from feeling reassured which builds stability in a relationship and if you’re with someone who doesn’t have the time or isn’t inclined to provide you with the stability you need… it might not be helping you.

Coping with positive situations

The second thing is — Have you considered that it’s precisely because of your past and previous traumas and fear of abandonment that you, maybe not knowingly, seek out relationships with people who are more likely to abandon you? Especially if they behave in ways that are comfortable to you in a way. You’ve had a lot of betrayal and trauma in other relationships which may mean that you require or need a little bit more reassurance than people who haven’t, but that isn’t a bad thing. I think we have a tendency when we have a lot of trauma in our past to believe that we’re ‘damaged goods’ and we have to be some sort of project for someone else to fix.

But the reality is that no one is a ‘damaged good’. Different people have different needs and, despite the message our society gives us about the supposed benefits of rugged individualism, human beings are social creatures. There is a reason why solitary confinement is a torture which has serious psychological impacts on people. It’s hard to be alone. And it’s doubly hard to try and deal and cope with trauma on your own. It is not weak or wrong to expect or want reassurance or help with other people in going through this. Now, one shouldn’t force a loved one to be one’s therapist, of course. But I don’t think that’s what you’re asking or expecting.

While I can’t say this is true of you for sure because I’m not you, I’ve found that my anxiety sometimes puts me in situations that aren’t good for me because my anxiety is all about trying to cope with an environment that isn’t great. And in some ways, my anxiety almost doesn’t know what to do with people who compliment me or treat me well. I actually feel more comfortable dealing with insults than I do with compliments.

My brain can do unhealthy explosive confrontation, but struggles to process the idea that confrontation can be healthy or productive. Maybe you’re finding yourself attracted to people who you know won’t provide you with the support you need because deep down you doubt you’re worth that support? Or you’re unsure of what you’d do with support or what it would be like to get it?

Facing your fears

The other thing I want to mention, especially because you highlight your fears, is that one of the things that has helped me the most in terms of coping with my fears is, while it may sound counterintuitive, recognising that there was little I could do to prevent my fears from becoming reality. I think anxiety can function differently from person to person, but it’s been my experience that my anxiety is trying to help me, as I said, cope with situations that I’m no longer finding myself in. And sometimes the best way of coping with a really traumatic situation is by distracting you with other things to be afraid of or giving you things you can do to address a traumatic situation.

So anxiety will tell you that you have the power to prevent these situations by doing certain things, or by just worrying the hell out of yourself. And if you think about it, that’s far more empowering as an option than to just sit back and let the trauma hit you. As much as you being afraid seems to get in the way of you living life, your fear is actually trying to help you because it’s making you think that there are things you can do to prevent someone abandoning you when the truth is that ultimately there is nothing you can do to stop that from happening.

Obviously as people we can be pleasant to be around or mistreat others or do things which will drive people away, sure. But there are plenty of people who are nice and wonderful partners who just don’t suit one another or who grow apart for various reasons and that cannot be helped. If your partner is not up to the task of helping you cope with your fears where they can and is not responsible enough to be honest with you about their limitations and maybe even break the relationship off if they feel like you would be better supported by someone else — none of this is your fault.

Abandonment and responsibility

It makes perfect sense to be afraid of abandonment. As I said, we’re social creatures. But I think part of the reason this is so difficult to cope with is because you’re putting all of the burden on preventing abandonment in your life on your shoulders when there is no possible way that you can prevent that. You assume that *you* are driving your partner away. You put all of the agency on yourself in this letter without once finding fault in your partner for their inability to help you. You can’t force someone to be interested in you and you shouldn’t blame yourself or your trauma if someone is not capable of providing you with the support you need — or even in some cases, especially with ignoring texts, even the basic level of decency and respect.

You don’t even consider that it’s perhaps *her* past which has made her incapable of fully handling a situation where someone has a need she can’t fulfil or being a responsible adult and communicating what she wants rather than leaving you up to guess at the reasons for why she’s behaving in certain ways. She absolutely is not bound by anything to be there for you if she can’t, but at the very least she should be able to tell you if that’s something she can’t do rather than pulling away slowly. And to her credit, maybe she is worried it might upset you if she’s forthright, but either way, it’s not working very well for either of you.

Summary

I think you should re-examine this with a new lens where you’re not assuming your need for re-assurance is a bad thing that you have to cope with. Really ask yourself if this type of lack of support is something you want to deal with. You said yourself you’re not excited by the relationship anymore and you don’t feel supported — why keep holding on? Why let it get to a point where someone abandons you rather than deciding for yourself to be pro-active and seek what you need in life? She’s certainly capable of doing so — and so are you.

I hope this helps and good luck.

Do you have a question?

If you have a non-monogamous relationships question to ask, please email it to nonmonogamyhelp@gmail.com. Your question will be posted anonymously.

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Episode 7: Polyagony

Trapped in a love square and slipped in an undercurrent of emotion? That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help.

You should also be able to find the podcast on Spotify, Apple, and other providers. Or, conversely, use our RSS feed. A full transcript of the podcast can be found on Patreon.

Episode 7 – Polyagony

Tired of juggling partners, living in polyagony, and ready to throw in the towel. That’s what’s on this week’s episode of Non-Monogamy Help. Find the full audio transcription of this episode on Patreon.

 

Thank you to Chris Albery-Jones at albery-jones.com for the theme music and a big thanks for the podcast art to Dom Duong at domduong.com.

Podcast transcript

Letter:

I start by saying that I’ve been dating two guys from 5 years ago. Let’s call them Joe and Christopher. I met Joe first. He is monogamous. At the beginning I didn’t know what he wanted, so I was always feeling insecure about everything. I started to hang out with different guys without any purpose. Then I stopped it because I was making myself just unhappy.

A time later, Joe and I continued seeing but more frequently but without establishing a proper relationship. Then I traveled to America and met Christopher. He told me he was polyamorous.

In the beginning, I was just curious. I liked the idea of being able to give love to more than one person and so freely. As I didn’t love him yet I came back to my monogamous relationship and things was almost the same.

Slowly he started to open his life to me, but I still was feeling insecure because I didn’t want to raise hopes and then he disappears again for months. As I was deeply in love but I didn’t want to admit it I said anything. Meanwhile, Christopher kept in contact. I went to visit America again and spent a few days with him. Was nice but short, we liked each other but that was all. At my return, Joe and I kept dating and I realized all this time he has had feelings for me but like me, he didn’t want to admit it (I guess we were too young and didn’t know how to deal with emotions).

Later on, for many personal and professional reason of my life, I decided I had to go away and ended living one year in Asia. Christopher visited me (he was the only one able to do it) and by the time he did it, Joe have had decided to finish his relationship with me for another girl that I had no idea existed. At that point I was so much in pain I didn’t want to know anything about him and tried to focus on Christopher to heal. Now I feel I was just using him to overcome a bad relationship. I think my problem was that I never established boundaries and let know my partners what I wanted. Things went worst when Joe told me the thing with the girl was something short and kinda made said me he wanted to be with me from the beginning. And I, still in love, of course, accepted him again.

So, what happens was that I started to develop feelings for both of them and having two relationships at a time. Somehow I ended in this polyamorous thing. (So I thought) I made sure both knew about each other. But now I think I did it also because I wanted to avoid to feel I was cheating on Joe. As I’ve been traveling for many years I haven’t been able to be with one or another for a long period of time.

One year ago I moved (again) to Europe. And I started to date and eventually fall in love with another person (let’s call him Poul). I told my polyamorous partner, but could not inform my monogamous partner, even though at that point he seemed to be ok with my first partner. I think that he was just trying to understand me, but actually was never feeling ok about it. Although I know he should’ve been clearer and direct, I think I knew it all the time, but because I loved him so much and was afraid to lose him I ignored his feelings. I almost thought I would leave my polyamorous partner just to be with him. Because in the end, he made me extremely happy.

Time passed and I started to realize my amorous life was a mess. I started doubting about my feelings on all my partners. Even Poul, who even though was open-minded, he wanted to explore all with an established partner. Something I knew from the begging I could not offer and I let him know many times but then we were in love and again both ignored the reality.

Then, I did another huge mistake. As I never felt the confidence to tell any of them that I was feeling insecure about everything. I never informed my polyamorous partner that I was doubting I still loved him. And I was so selfish I got anxious and sad when Poul wanted to push me away because he was afraid of falling in love. I know now I should have stopped to evaluate their feelings and my feelings. I was crying by the idea that I could not be with someone I loved just because of that.

Although I and Poul stayed together and I even try to arrange a meeting with Christopher, because Christopher wanted. It never happened. And as you can see, all that time I was forgetting about Joe. Who I talked time to time, sometimes intensively sometimes sporadically. I was extremely happy by the idea of see him again and be with him, so I bought a ticket to see him. Then, I realized all this time I never told him about Paul, and now that I had developed emotions for him I should’ve told him. So I did, but of course, it was a really bad timing. I told my monogamous partner about the existence of Paul too late and ended ruining his feelings and mines. The relationship itself, to be short.

Now I really believe all this happened because I wasn’t clear about what I wanted (kinda I never stopped to consider it) and I wasn’t sensitive about what my partners wanted. In the end, Joe and I weren’t honest with each other. I was not fully honest with Christopher about my love for him and although Paul has become relevant I know somehow that I will never be able to satisfy his needs. I wish I would know your blog from the beginning.

After a long talk, Joe did was I believe is the correct thing. Broke up with me. He said even tho we both love each other as we want different things in the romantic life, the best for us is to break up. True but it hurts like hell. I feel I can’t be with anyone and I wanna break up with my other two partners. One because I don’t feel I love him enough and the other one because at the end is gonna asks for the same thing that Joe and I can’t commit to that.

I don’t want to do the same mistakes over and over again. I don’t feel secure to continue any relationship and I think I need to be alone. At the same time, I can’t stop thinking about Joe and I’m not sure how to overcome this, I feel I just wanna go with him and try to save it all, but that is wrong. I’m kinda tired of polyamorous (If I ever was one) What is sure, is that this has become a ‘polyagony’ and I don’t know how to solve all this. I feel bad for using people because of my insecurities.

Response:

So there’s quite a lot of things going on here. Let me just established some things in case it was difficult for people to follow. So Joe was the person you met first. He’s monogamous. Christopher you met later. He’s polyamorous. And then there’s Paul who you met later on, which you don’t say whether Paul is inclined towards monogamy or polyamory.

It’s really weird to me… The first thing that strikes me is that you said that you started seeing Joe first. He’s monogamous and you didn’t know what he wanted but I kinda think that being monogamous is a pretty clear indication of what he wants. So I’m not really sure what you were… I mean you could say you know you don’t know what kind of eventual long-term partnership he wanted and that makes sense. But wanting monogamy is a pretty… or being monogamous enough for you to say that he is monogamous is a pretty clear indication of what exactly it is that he wants. So I’m confused as to why at that point you were… cause you said you started hanging out with different guys without any purpose and then you stopped as you are making yourself unhappy and you continued to go on with Joe but not establishing any kind of proper relationship.

And then Joe kind of it seems like… completely ditches you to date someone else but doesn’t tell you and then comes back later.  I think that your assessment of the situation is is right in a lot of ways like… Boundaries are good thing to have and when… This is one of the reasons why, you know, when are people like “We don’t need any rules”…  Sometimes I think boundaries get confused with rules. I think that you know rules like “We’re only going to love each other but we’re never gonna fall in love with anybody else” is just ridiculous because you can’t predict or control that kind of thing. But you can work with people to understand what type of relationship you want. What kind of relationship you have. Where your emotional commitments are… you know. You can work with each other to figure that out and you not know that from the beginning. Especially with your situation, you’re moving and you’re not stationary in any one place for a long amount of time so you’re not really going to be anyone’s like anchor partner or you’re… probably. I mean you can be if you want but you’re probably not going to be… your relationship with them isn’t one where you’re living with them and seeing them day to day but you need to talk about that and you need to establish boundaries.

And you’re right that a lot of this comes… a lot of these problems came from you not establishing boundaries. The first being not really working out with Christopher what your relationship is. You say he’s monogamous so it’s pretty clear he wants monogamy. But are you or are you not in a relationship? It seems like it was very unclear for you. And you have this consistent problem… cause you say you somehow ended up being polyamorous but.. you don’t really like… you don’t end up being polyamorous by accident like I mean… I guess you can but…  the point is that if you’re honest about things… like polyamory and monogamy are different things to want.

And you can be a polyamorous person who has a partner who is monogamous with you and that’s fine if they agree to that but if you’re polyamorous person with a monogamous partner who thinks you’re being monogamous with them… that’s not polyamory. That’s cheating. And I just think… I think you and Joe had the problem of not establishing what it was that your relationship was. And he just kind of pissing off and not talking to you for months is a really horrible thing for him to do. Like… monogamy or polyamory, regardless of whatever relationship style you do, someone who just completely ditches you and also is dishonest… I mean I say he was dishonest… he didn’t tell you about this person he was dating but if you never established a clear relationship… you know, you can’t just have boundary that are just in your head. You have to communicate those.

And hiding things… like you have a consistent problem with hiding things because you either don’t want to deal with your own feelings or you don’t want to deal with somebody else’s feelings and that is just delaying the inevitable. Like… and a lot of people do this. You’re kind of inclined to do it sometimes cause you’re like “Ooh maybe if I just don’t say anything about this, it’ll be ok”. And at one point when you’re not telling Joe about Paul and you’re not telling… you don’t have to like… you don’t have to tell someone “I don’t know if I love you that much”. You don’t have to… you know. If you make it clear what your relationship expectations are and you understand more about what you want then you don’t have to worry about leading someone on because it’s very clear what the expectations are.

And I feel like there’s so much that’s unsaid that you’re worried about..  “Oh I need to tell this person that I’m not as in love with them as I should be”. But you don’t know what they expect out of the relationship. You’re expecting that Paul wants you to be, from what it sounds like, a primary or domestic partner or anchor partner or someone who’s Paul’s primary emotional support and you can’t do that. So instead of being honest about that… you’re just delaying the inevitable. You’re making things much much worse by hiding things for the sake of either not hurting the other person or because you just don’t want to face it.

You want to have fun with Paul and you want to enjoy that romantic feeling but you know at some point Paul’s needs are that Paul wants someone who is like that. And yeah you know if you make it clear to the other person, “I can’t do this”, then it’s not necessarily your fault if they continue to expect that. But at the same time, I do think that if there are hints to you that Paul is expecting this then it is kind of your responsibility to reiterate it and your responsibility to also think “Should I continue this relationship knowing that eventually it’s going to hurt this other person?”

So yeah being not clear about stuff like… You can be unclear but at times you’re purposefully hiding stuff. Purposefully hiding Paul from your other partners is cheating. It’s not being unclear. It’s not you know… It’s cheating outright because you’re lying about something. I think you know… cheating definitions can vary from one couple to the other but I think a universal premise behind cheating is lying about dating or being with someone else. And you are. You have done that so you can’t really blame Joe for being upset or anyone for being upset if you’ve hid things from them. Not just not hiding feelings of like “Oh I don’t know find it in love enough with you” or stuff like that but literally hiding the fact that you’re dating someone else while you’re actively dating them and they think you aren’t… you know I mean… Joe wasn’t performing great when he just abandoned you.

It seems like a one-off to date somebody else without even telling you and you found out later but you would… from what it sounds like you weren’t dating at the… He wasn’t hiding this person from you while you’re in a relationship. So yeah I think those are the things you need to focus on like you really need to work on your inclination to hide things in order to avoid the consequences because what happens is you make the consequences 10 times worse. You don’t seem to be able to make the decision… like when you mention that Joe broke up with you because you want different things. He was making a very… the right decision there because you know you do want different things.

He wants monogamy and you could have avoided all of this pain and heartache if you would have just been honest with yourself from the beginning. You can’t… I don’t think you should go with Joe and try and be monogamous and try to make that work because at this point you can’t really trust your own kind of emotional instincts right now. Because your default seems way too much into… instead of thinking about things and understanding the real consequences of them down the line, you’re focus too much on getting what you want right away, even if that means  you won’t get what you I want down the line and it’ll just hurt more.

I think that… whether or not you’re polyamorous or not is really up to you. I don’t think that’s a thing that matters right now, personally. Because. it’s difficult to say that for anyone. If someone… the examples of you trying it in this case aren’t really the best examples. It’s sort of like someone just had their first monogamous relationship and they were cheated on and then you know going… or they had a terrible relationship or terrible communication, judging whether or not they can do monogamy by that relationship wouldn’t really be fair. But I just don’t think that that’s the thing you should focus on right now.

I really think that what you need to work on, with a therapist if you have access to it, is your inclination to hide or lie in order to avoid the inevitable. You delay the inevitable a lot. You’re doing that with Paul as well. Like if you… you’ve told him but… if… I think you’re not listening to like the first instincts that you have which are showing themselves to be correct. But you’re kind of going, “Well I don’t want to leave the situation because I have all these nice feelings, a nice romantic support and I have the satisfaction now”. But what you don’t understand… what you’re not really seeing is that if you don’t… if you’re not honest with yourself and honest with other people about the realities of the situation and sometimes that really sucks and I totally understand the inclination to, especially if you’re lonely, especially if you don’t have a lot of other ways of getting support, like you know… This is especially true for people who don’t have family networks, who don’t have a lot of close friends, you know, you’re gonna want to hold on to whatever emotional and romantic validation and support that you have.

But you have to kind of be able to understand the bigger picture and the bigger picture is that  Paul wants something you can’t provide and not only just for him but for yourself… it doesn’t make sense to continue that if you feel like in your heart it’s not going to end well. I think that you’re… I don’t necessarily think you need to break up with Christopher. I do think that your feeling is about Paul in terms of you’re not going to be able to give him what he wants… you know, you need to sit down and have a real discussion with him and not be suggestive.

And not be… I don’t know if you have… you know you say you’re quite honest with him about… this is… “I can’t be this person for you”. If you haven’t sat him down and been really clear about that then do that. He may be in the same position as well. He may know that and he may just want to continue because he likes the support but you might have to make the bigger decision. You might have to say, “Look, I know that I can’t give this to you and it’s probably best we end this now”. Because the longer you drag it out the more your feelings are going to get hurt at the end of the day.

I don’t think that you necessarily have to break up with Christopher. I just think that you need to see a therapist about… and maybe even a couples therapist but definitely a therapist on your own about avoidance and about avoiding uncomfortable feelings because you don’t want to deal with them. Because they… this is you know if you look back at what you wrote and the problems that you have… I mean this is just the perfect case of the fact that avoiding doesn’t solve anything and actually leads to you cheating. Leads to you hiding things and leads to you avoiding being honest with yourself and with your partners because you don’t want to hurt their feelings or you don’t want to deal with difficult things.

And I think that is going to cause you problems regardless of what kind of relationship style you want to be in. You can’t do monogamy well either if you can’t be honest with yourself and with the person that you’re with. All relationships, like functional relationships that don’t have as much drama as you would normally have with two people trying to work things or multiple people trying to work things out, you’re going to have more problems if you can’t be honest. And it’s really hard like I wanna reinforce to you that being honest with yourself and being honest with other people is really really difficult.

There so much polyamory advice that talks about, you know, “tell people what you want and be honest about what you want and you have to tell people and you have to communicate and you have to talk”. And it really downplays how scary communication can be because if you’re honest about what you want and if you invest the time to understand what you want and you can communicate that… it’s a lot easier for people to say “I can’t do that” and then where are you? You know, it’s a lot safer in some instances to avoid having that conversation because then you continue to have the good feelings of a relationship and you don’t have to deal with a difficult ones.

But as I said like… this avoiding dealing with that is not helping you. It’s making it so much worse for you. So yeah, I mean if you want to as well consult a therapist regarding Paul and what to do. If you want to see a relationship counsellor, all of these should be obviously polyamory friendly counsellors… If you want to see one with Paul and just make sure… Because it’s up to Paul. Like Paul can say “I know that you can’t provide me with this. I’ll find that with someone else. That’s fine”. You can’t responsible like… the best you can do is inform Paul as much as possible of what your boundaries on what you can offer to that relationship.

And also do some self soul-searching and think about… is this what you want? What you want your relationships to look like? You know you’ve kind of fallen into this polyamory thing but you haven’t really put any thought into whether or not it’s actually something you want and you may not know. You may be like… I honestly don’t know what I’m going to want to 20 years from now. I don’t know what I want my wife to look like. You’re moving around a lot. Do you wanna settle in one place? Are you going to settle in one place? You have to think about the kind of future that you want and that can help steer what kinds of relationships you can have with different types of people. You can consult a relationships… you know you can get relationship counselling with Paul to figure out if he understands what your boundaries and what your limitations are once you figure you’re out what they are.

But equally I do think like… to summarise, you should definitely think about therapy or think about… and make Christopher aware as well that this is an issue. You do not have to wait until you’re a perfect human being to date anyone. Like we all have problems… well, maybe some people don’t have any problems but I’ve rarely met anyone who doesn’t have any problems. We all have a lot of things that we were learned culturally, that we learned from our parents, that we learned from media, that we learned… you know we all have… none of us are perfect and we all have things to work through so it’s not like you… I understand the feeling like “I want to be alone and I want to figure this out” and that might be the best decision for you.

It really depends but I don’t think you need to set yourself up with this idea that you need to be perfect in order to date and that’s a really big thing within polyamory because people make it seem like polyamory is some type of level up and that, you know, you have to be this emotionally secure and amazing person in order to do polyamory right or whatever. And I don’t… I don’t think you have to but I do think that you need to be able to be aware of what your issues are and if you can communicate that to Christopher and just be like, “I have a problem with avoiding telling people things because I don’t want to… I’m afraid of the consequences. I’m afraid of hurting them. I’m afraid of things happening” and work out strategies with therapists on how to deal with it and how to counteract that avoidance.

And if you have partners who are aware that you avoid things then they can also kind of pay more attention to your body language. Pay more attention to what’s going on in your life and prompt you, especially if it’s way difficult for you to avoid things if someone’s asking you directly about it. I’m kind of a little bit like that when it comes to confrontation and my feelings like… I’ll feel ok about something and then I’ll start to feel less and less ok and I literally won’t know how to have that conversation because… especially if I’ve already been asked “Are you ok with this?” and I said yes and I was ok and then I start not being ok and I keep not being ok and I don’t know how to have that conversation of like “I said I was ok before but I’m not ok now”.

And it just ends up… like I think my body language changes and you know my domestic partner realises that and will check in and be like “Are you ok? Are you not ok anymore?” or… But it’s not necessarily that I’m avoid… I’m not really wanting to avoid anything it’s just sometimes I literally don’t know how to have that conversation or I don’t… or I know how to have it but I don’t know how to have it in a healthy way. I know how to confront people angrily. I can do that. But how to have healthy confrontation where I have to be vulnerable and admit that someone hurt my feelings and see what they do is not something that I am always prepared to do.

So I get it, like… the avoidance thing makes sense but it’s also making it way way harder for you and I think you do kinda see that. I think you do have some good instincts but you just need to not let the… not quiet the instincts down and sort of duck them down and ignore them because you want to enjoy the good feelings. It makes a lot of logical sense like and I’m totally not blaming you for that. It makes sense to want to enjoy a good relationship and not just throw it away because things might not work out but if it really isn’t going to work out like… Someone’s monogamous and you’re polyamorous… Unfortunately you do have to… you know, forcing yourself to go through this as you can see is way more painful in the long run.

Anyway, I think you know like, to sum up, really work on that and then afterwards I think once you’ve addressed that issue about avoidance, I think you can start to have a little bit more thoughts about what do I want my life to look like? Why do I want to be polyamorous? What does polyamory bring to my life that I don’t get from monogamy that I want to make this decision? I think it’s really helpful to actually think about your motivations and not just do it because you want to have the relationships that you have. I think it’s important to see it as a life choice that you’d make regardless of whether there was no Christopher, there was no Paul, there was no Joe.

So yeah, I really hope that helps and good luck.

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